Atheism's Offer

Originally posted by josephw
That's true. You'll have no physical senses after your dead.

Now this is where it gets dicey. You didn't exists before conception. But you began to exist after conception. Imagine that you can live forever. Sounds fairytaleish doesn't it?

There is no logical reason to conclude that one ceases to exist simply because the body dies.

The universe isn't a cold hard empty place. There is a way! Don't you believe me?

Yeah but if we "live forever", then the only way forward for me, (of such an "out there" concept), is to infer that we existed PRIOR to our births.
So this life, (where we forget things), is just the "dream" in between our eternal natures/experience(s).
Do you know what I mean?

Originally posted by rwingett
I didn't exist prior to my physical body. I will cease to exist after its demise. I don't sit around wishing I had existed for all eternity before I was born and I see no reason to wish for eternal existence after I'm presumably gone.

Why is it that Christians are always fixated on what happens after death? The eternity of time before your birth didn't inconvenience you in the slightest, why is the after life part so terrifying to you?

"Why is it that Christians are always fixated on what happens after death?"

It's not a fixation as though it were a psychological condition in need of therapy. Why does the idea of eternity cause one such as yourself so much consternation? Do you really want to cease to exist? Is this life and this world the limit of your imagination? Is the idea of a place were there is no death or suffering of any kind too much for you to hope for? Are you afraid?


"The eternity of time before your birth didn't inconvenience you in the slightest, why is the after life part so terrifying to you?"

Terrifying? Let me tell you what is terrifying. Missing you after this life is over. And I'm not joking.

It's not a religious experience I'm talking about here. "Religious experiences" are had by the nut jobs. If there is a Creator/God, you'll find Him. Or I should say, He'll find you. And when He does you'll know it, and there won't be a thing about the experience that is religious.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Yeah but if we "live forever", then the only way forward for me, (of such an "out there" concept), is to infer that we existed PRIOR to our births.
So this life, (where we forget things), is just the "dream" in between our eternal natures/experience(s).
Do you know what I mean?

Yes I know what you mean.

But you don't, right? You're speculating and you know it. Speculating and guessing and wishing for something to be so doesn't make it so. One has to KNOW, and knowing means someone who is the absolute authority told you so. We don't invent the truth no matter how hard we try. Truth about anything comes from the one who knows everything perfectly.

Do you understand what that means? It means that knowledge about anything comes from the one that made everything.

Do you remember hearing the saying "it's the economy stupid"? Well, "it's the source stupid".

It means everything to know that the source from which we know anything knows everything perfectly.

Originally posted by josephw
Yes I know what you mean.

But you don't, right? You're speculating and you know it. Speculating and guessing and wishing for something to be so doesn't make it so. One has to KNOW, and knowing means someone who is the absolute authority told you so. We don't invent the truth no matter how hard we try. Truth about anything comes from the one who knows ever ything to know that the source from which we know anything knows everything perfectly.

You sound a bit like Vishvava there...

Anyway, I'll give you the truth, if you dont believe me, thats cool.

The truth is I agree with much of what you are saying but, I digress. That was an unecessary ego-rub.
I speak from direct experiencing of the "One" from which all knowledge (the Source), comes from.
Any "speculating" on being right is only "fine-tuning" of the facts,(as I understand them)
I know the basic structure of human psycology as it relates to spirituality.
So yes, I "KNOW". I am not yet enlightenented, but I am on the right course. I KNOW.

Sorry to all that that may sound egotistical, I have trouble putting forward that "truth" without sounding egotistical. I guess its because I'm trying to reallign myself with my (spiritual) heritage. I am making an effort and I will make mistakes. But there is no intentional ignorance on my part. I am aware of my "sins"

Originally posted by karoly aczel
You sound a bit like Vishvava there...

Anyway, I'll give you the truth, if you dont believe me, thats cool.

The truth is I agree with much of what you are saying but, I digress. That was an unecessary ego-rub.
I speak from direct experiencing of the "One" from which all knowledge (the Source), comes from.
Any "speculating" on being right is onl ...[text shortened]... istakes. But there is no intentional ignorance on my part. I am aware of my "sins"

"You sound a bit like Vishvava there..."

Ya, I know. And it scares the hel out of me! 😉


"Anyway, I'll give you the truth, if you dont believe me, thats cool."

I know you're not a liar karoly. I don't believe anyone in this forum is an outright liar.


You KNOW the ONE? What's His name?

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"You sound a bit like Vishvava there..."

Ya, I know. And it scares the hel out of me! 😉


"Anyway, I'll give you the truth, if you dont believe me, thats cool."

I know you're not a liar karoly. I don't believe anyone in this forum is an outright liar.


You KNOW the ONE? What's His name?[/b]

"He" stands before you rioght now and forever. "He" is just as you see him right now, nameless, formless and with no title to speak of. These are all man-made concepts to introduce us into the greater being that is "god".

I know the ONE but not continously🙁

I know it is only my own self imposed limitations that separate me from "Him".

Originally posted by josephw
Imagine you had no physical senses.

What would remain? Your thoughts? Your emotions?

You wouldn't even know you had a body. Then if your body died, what would remain?

Nothing?

No hope.

Originally posted by rwingett
I didn't exist prior to my physical body. I will cease to exist after its demise. I don't sit around wishing I had existed for all eternity before I was born and I see no reason to wish for eternal existence after I'm presumably gone.

Why is it that Christians are always fixated on what happens after death? The eternity of time before your birth didn't inconvenience you in the slightest, why is the after life part so terrifying to you?

==============================================
I didn't exist prior to my physical body. I will cease to exist after its demise. I don't sit around wishing I had existed for all eternity before I was born and I see no reason to wish for eternal existence after I'm presumably gone.
=======================================

I understand your position. And it does make some sense. But something also puzzles me.

Doesn't it make sense to listen to someone who seems more of a practical authority on the matter ? We have this person Jesus Christ. Reports are that He raised a few people from the dead. Reports are that He Himself raised from the dead. He went through something more horrible then we can imagine with a confidence that it would not destroy Him and that He would be back in victory.

When this man speaks on the subject matter of human life and death, time and eternity, etc. don't you think something of His credentials demands that we should listen ? I mean at least we should listen.

If you ask me what it is like to be a world's champion chess player I couldn't tell you. But if Gary Kasporov were here, it would behoove you to listen to him. He knows something about it whereas I do not.

This one who said "I am the resurrection and the life" I think, given His exprience, His integrity, His selfless, totally selfless commitment, His level of purity, His lazer like insight into the motives of the human heart, and His demonstration of His own breaking the bonds of the grave, on the subject matter, should be considered for consultation.

There seems that no one else possesses the credentials to speak on that matter with more authority then Jesus. Do you think in meditating on mortality or resurrection and eternity, we can afford to ignore what Christ had to say ?

Originally posted by josephw
Imagine you had no physical senses.

What would remain? Your thoughts? Your emotions?

You wouldn't even know you had a body. Then if your body died, what would remain?

Nothing?

“...Imagine you had no physical senses.

What would remain? Your thoughts? Your emotions? ...”

yes to both.

“...You wouldn't even know you had a body. Then if your body died, what would remain?

Nothing? ...”

correct.

So your point is?....that atheism has “nothing to offer”?
Is there a logical reason why the truth should have something to “offer” us ? And, if so, what is this logical reason?
Why logically could it not be the case that the truth has nothing to “offer” us?

Originally posted by josephw
There is no logical reason to conclude that one ceases to exist simply because the body dies.

Actually there is every logical and scientific reason to make such a conclusion. It would defy the very definition of "I" to claim that "I" can outlast my body. I guess my brain could be replicated on a giant computer, but I am not sure whether to think of that as a continuation of "I" or a clone.
Much more difficult of course is the question of what point in time is my brain replicated / cloned. If it happens before I die (say two years before), then it clearly isn't a continuation. If it happens at the point of death and I develop Alzheimer's 2 years before death and forget everything and go mad, then do I really care what happens to that replica of my mad future self?
If it is some new entity that somehow pick up attributes from my whole life on earth, then again, is it "I" and do I really care what happens to it?

So, yes, by the every day use of the term "I" and what I generally mean by it and think when I use it, there is every logical reason to conclude that it will cease to exist when my body dies.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Actually there is every logical and scientific reason to make such a conclusion. It would defy the very definition of "I" to claim that "I" can outlast my body. I guess my brain could be replicated on a giant computer, but I am not sure whether to think of that as a continuation of "I" or a clone.
Much more difficult of course is the question of what poi ...[text shortened]... e is every logical reason to conclude that it will cease to exist when my body dies.

And there was every logical conclusion to suppose the Earth was flat.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Athiesm offers sanity to some that have been brainwashed by false garbage.

I think it only offers nothing, even if the Atheist view is correct there is no offer.
With respect to false garbage, who cares what another believes? If all beliefs are
false or just cannot be proven as the next and all results end the same way, what
difference does it make what another believes? To debate would than only be a
matter of trying to push your will upon another to conform them into being another
like yourself, with no reward to those who agree in the end with you, and no
penalty for those who disagree with you. It matters if there something beyond
our petty views, but not if we are the total sum of all measurements about faith
and values.
Kelly

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"Why is it that Christians are always fixated on what happens after death?"

It's not a fixation as though it were a psychological condition in need of therapy. Why does the idea of eternity cause one such as yourself so much consternation? Do you really want to cease to exist? Is this life and this world the limit of your imagination? Is the idea o ...[text shortened]... ou'll know it, and there won't be a thing about the experience that is religious.[/b]

Do you really want to cease to exist?

The world is not obliged to bend to your desirings on this subject. You will cease to exist regardless of your feelings on the matter.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I think it only offers nothing, even if the Atheist view is correct there is no offer.
With respect to false garbage, who cares what another believes? If all beliefs are
false or just cannot be proven as the next and all results end the same way, what
difference does it make what another believes? To debate would than only be a
matter of trying to push ...[text shortened]... petty views, but not if we are the total sum of all measurements about faith
and values.
Kelly

even if the Atheist view is correct there is no offer.

But some of us actually value our view's being correct. Not you, apparently, but some of us.

Originally posted by KellyJay
what difference does it make what another believes? To debate would than only be a matter of trying to push your will upon another to conform them into being another like yourself...

It sometimes makes a huge difference. Homosexuals - for example - have long been discriminated against because of the beliefs that certain people hold and the desire of those people to push their will upon homosexuals to conform. Countless human lives have been damaged or destroyed over the centuries. What "others" believe can and does make a world of difference.