Atheists against Jesus?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
There's been quite a bit said against Christianity.

I don't think I've seen much said against the teachings of Jesus. Is there anything that anyone has found objectionable? I'd really be interested in hearing it if there is.

Did Jesus ever say that he was God's son, out of the context of: "We are ALL God's sons."?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
So much of the teachings of Jesus were in the form of parables. I doubt I could adequately capture their essence in a summarization.

Oh, O.K., I guess I qualify as being skeptical of Jesus' divinity and agnostic concerning the content of his teachings. In any case, I doubt he had anything to say that the Greeks hadn't said better three hundred years earlier.

Originally posted by shavixmir
Did Jesus ever say that he was God's son, out of the context of: "We are ALL God's sons."?

I see that as being open to interpretation. In general, I don't believe that Jesus was saying that "We are ALL God's sons". I tend to believe it more accurate to say that Jesus was saying that all those who are righteous (follow the will of God) are God's sons and that all can be God's sons.

Originally posted by bbarr
Oh, O.K., I guess I qualify as being skeptical of Jesus' divinity and agnostic concerning the content of his teachings. In any case, I doubt he had anything to say that the Greeks hadn't said better three hundred years earlier.

Here's something you might find interesting. David C mentioned Jeffersonian Christianity so I found the Jefferson Bible which is subtitled "The Life and Morals of Jesus". Most of the parables of Jesus are contained here if you want to have easy access.

http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/index.html

Also, since you mentioned the Greeks, here's text cut from Jefferson's syllabus that summarizes his take on the Greeks:


Let a just view be taken of the moral principles inculcated by the most esteemed of the sects of ancient philosophy or of their individuals; particularly Pythagoras, Socrates, Epicurus, Cicero, Epictetus, Seneca, Antoninus.

I. Philosophers.

1. Their precepts related chiefly to ourselves, and the government of those passions which, unrestrained, would disturb our tranquillity of mind.[Note] In this branch of philosophy they were really great.

2. In developing our duties to others, they were short and defective. They embraced, indeed, the circles of kindred and friends, and inculcated patriotism, or the love of our country in the aggregate, as a primary obligation: towards our neighbors and countrymen they taught justice, but scarcely viewed them as within the circle of benevolence. Still less have they inculcated peace, charity and love to our fellow men, or embraced with benevolence the whole family of mankind.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Well, not trying to avoid his own death could be considered to be suicidal. Not moving when there is a truck coming towards you certainly would be considered suicide. Or not pulling the rip cord on a parachute would be considered suicide, I think.

Someone takes a bullet for you - did he just commit suicide? I don't think so; some one else pulled the trigger, right?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Either his death was a sacrifice (suicide) or it wasn't

Sacrifice is not suicide. Someone takes a bullet for you - is that suicide? Who pulled the trigger?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Here's something you might find interesting. David C mentioned Jeffersonian Christianity so I found the Jefferson Bible which is subtitled "The Life and Morals of Jesus". Most of the parables of Jesus are contained here if you want to have easy access.

http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/index.html

Also, since you mentioned the Greeks, here' ...[text shortened]... y and love to our fellow men, or embraced with benevolence the whole family of mankind.[/b]

That's interesting, but I have no reason to think that Jefferson actually understood ancient Greek ethics.

Originally posted by bbarr
That's interesting, but I have no reason to think that Jefferson actually understood ancient Greek ethics.

Is that a polite way of saying you think Jefferson's conclusions were flawed?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Is that a polite way of saying you think Jefferson's conclusions were flawed?

I'm not even sure I understand what his conclusions are. In any case, we certainly do find in Aristotle and the Stoics (though not in the Epicureans and the Cyrenaics) accounts of other-regarding reasons that derive from virtue possession. Justice was regarded as a virtue, after all.

Originally posted by bbarr
That's interesting, but I have no reason to think that Jefferson actually understood ancient Greek ethics.

Snootiness is not a virtue.

Jefferson described himself as a follower of Epicurus, who if I'm not mistaken was an ancient Greek philosopher.

http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/jefflet.html


EDIT: This article argues that Jefferson's famous phrase used in the Declaration of Independence, "the pursuit of happiness" was derived from Epicurean ideals:

Jefferson admired Epicurus and owned eight copies of De rerum Natura (On the Nature of Things) by Lucretius, a Roman disciple of Epicurus. In a letter Jefferson wrote to William Short on October 13, 1819, he declared, “I too am an Epicurean. I consider the genuine doctrines of Epicurus as containing everything rational in moral philosophy which Greece and Rome have left us.” At the end of the letter, Jefferson made a summary of the key points of Epicurean doctrine, including:

Moral.—Happiness the aim of life.
Virtue the foundation of happiness.
Utility the test of virtue.

Properly understood, therefore, when John Locke, Samuel Johnson, and Thomas Jefferson wrote of “the pursuit of happiness,” they were invoking the Greek and Roman philosophical tradition in which happiness is bound up with the civic virtues of courage, moderation, and justice. Because they are civic virtues, not just personal attributes, they implicate the social aspect of eudaimonia.

http://hnn.us/articles/46460.html

Originally posted by no1marauder
Snootiness is not a virtue.

Jefferson described himself as a follower of Epicurus, who if I'm not mistaken was an ancient Greek philosopher.

http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/jefflet.html

I am not being snooty, I am being skeptical for good reason. The Epicurean school is one hedonistic version of ancient Greek ethics that involves the reformulation of the notion of 'happiness as pleasure' (here meaning, roughly, 'tranquility'😉 found in the Cyrenaics, and one that is foreign to the Stoics, Socratics and to Aristotle. So, even if Jefferson did understand the Epicurean school of thought, it wouldn't follow that he understood the others. In fact, there is reason to think that he did not, if the claims he makes about Greek ethics generally are taken at face value. For instance, he seems to think that the Stoics cannot account for benevolence towards mere countrymen, but that is false (as it certainly is for Aristotelian ethics). But I am unsure whether Jefferson even understood Epicurus, since Jefferson makes no mention of the essential connection Epicurus thought obtained between our nature as rational human beings and what could count as true happiness. Nor is he seemingly aware of the tension between virtue-possession and the pursuit of utility. On the Epicurean account, virtues are only instrumentally valuable in that they are tools that reliably lead to tranquility. But would Jefferson agree that we ultimately ought to be compassionate or just because there are egoistic reasons for doing so?

Originally posted by shavixmir
Did Jesus ever say that he was God's son, out of the context of: "We are ALL God's sons."?

Quite forcefully. Check this out (from the Gospel according to John):
Then Jesus said to the Jews who believed in Him, "If you continue in My message, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and were never in bondage to anyone. How do you say, 'You will be made free?' " Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever practices sin is the servant of sin. And the servant does not abide in the house forever, but the Son abides forever. Therefore if the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. I know that you are Abraham's descendants, but you seek to kill Me because My message has no place in you. I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you, then, do what you have seen with your father." They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus answered them, "If you were Abraham's descendants, you would do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth which I have heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You do the deeds of your father." Then they said to Him, "We are not born of fornication; we have one father, even God." Jesus said to them, "If God were your father, you would love Me, for I went forth and came from God; I did not come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not hear what I'm saying? Because you cannot understand My message. You are of your father, the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and did not abide in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of lies. And because I tell you the truth, you do not believe Me ..."
And that's what He was saying to some who believed in Him! Doesn't sound like no "Universal Fatherhood of God" message to me! How 'bout you?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
There's been quite a bit said against Christianity.

I don't think I've seen much said against the teachings of Jesus. Is there anything that anyone has found objectionable? I'd really be interested in hearing it if there is.

I have a tough time identifying what are Jesus' teachings and which are not in the Bible.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
I have a tough time identifying what are Jesus' teachings and which are not in the Bible.

Well said. If you want to know what the teachings of Jesus are, look in the Bible!

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Here's something you might find interesting. David C mentioned Jeffersonian Christianity so I found the Jefferson Bible which is subtitled "The Life and Morals of Jesus". Most of the parables of Jesus are contained here if you want to have easy access.

http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/index.html

Also, since you mentioned the Greeks, here' y and love to our fellow men, or embraced with benevolence the whole family of mankind.[/b]

Jefferson obviously found something of value in the life and teachings of Jesus, but because he rejected the supernatural, he found much of the Bible troublesome and therefore "edited" it according to his bias, hence we have a Jefferson Bible. (Hmm, ... Christianity with no resurrection, huh? No such creature exists 🙄 Poor Tom. He's probably with Mark Twain in that place that Jesus invented 😉 ).