1. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    25 Nov '10 23:03
    What have you got? C'mon, I want my worldview shattered.
  2. Standard memberAgerg
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    26 Nov '10 01:40
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    What have you got? C'mon, I want my worldview shattered.
    Perhaps communicate your worldview first! indeed, you often say the universe is a paradox...what does that mean?
  3. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    26 Nov '10 02:09
    Originally posted by Agerg
    Perhaps communicate your worldview first! indeed, you often say the universe is a paradox...what does that mean?
    Just assume my worldview loosely agrees with SOME new age philosohpies.
    I also am sympatheic towards bhuddists psycology/spiritualtity, especially the parts the refer to spiritualty as being something to work out for yourself (rather than witing for JC to save us, for example).

    With paradox, lets just start by saying that every point that can be made about the universe/reality/god always has a counter-point.
    The only way to approach "full understanding" about this stuff, is to undertand the spirit in which the koans were concieved.The koan is a non-dualist way to undertand the wholisitic nature of true spirituality.
    I dont have linear answers to spiritual questions, I can only draw from my own experiences and then attempt to communicate these experinces in a way that someone else reading my words may undrstand them.

    This is another reason why I go on about being it the right "ballpark" . If your thinking is dualist, then you wont understand a thing I'm trying to say.
  4. Standard memberDasa
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    26 Nov '10 02:35
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    What have you got? C'mon, I want my worldview shattered.
    OK, ........you and everyone else believe that everything is so important, you believe your life is important, your children are important, your job is important, your friends are important, your place of birth is important, your relatives are important, your country is important and so on and so on.

    But all these things are dust in the wind, an illusion, a dream, temporary, and the only important thing in your life, is actually your sentiments for God, and Gods creatures.

    If a person has no loving sentiments towards the Lord and his fellow living beings, his life is a complete waste of time.

    This world has been created trillions of times in the past, and every time it has, all the rebellious souls, come here to play ( dream ) at Lording it over the material energy (dust)......and they get up to so many things, they create inventions, have children, become popular amongst their peers, get wealthy, get famous, and all their endeavors are annihilated at death.

    Go to a grave yard and look at a tomb stone......here lies John Smith died 1875 and who cares about John Smith, or what John Smith got up to when he was alive....nobody.

    Go back 1 million years....where are all the grave yards or anything from that time?....nowhere, just dust in the wind, and forgotten for eternity.

    Bhagavad Gita Chpt 5 Vs 22: " An intelligent person does not take part in the sources of misery, which are due to the contact with the material senses. O son of Kunti, such pleasures have a beginning and an end, and the wise man does not delight in them."

    The only important thing, is that which develops self realization of self and God, and anything else is of no importance.
  5. Standard memberAgerg
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    26 Nov '10 02:404 edits
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Just assume my worldview loosely agrees with SOME new age philosohpies.
    I also am sympatheic towards bhuddists psycology/spiritualtity, especially the parts the refer to spiritualty as being something to work out for yourself (rather than witing for JC to save us, for example).

    With paradox, lets just start by saying that every point that can be mad allpark" . If your thinking is dualist, then you wont understand a thing I'm trying to say.
    Well there are a number of different definitions of "dualism" but assuming you mean in the following sense (wikipedia):

    "Alternatively, dualism can mean the tendency of humans to perceive and understand the world as being divided into two overarching categories. In this sense, it is dualistic when one perceives a tree as a thing separate from everything surrounding it, or when one perceives a "self" that is distinct from the rest of the world. In traditions such as classical Hinduism, Zen Buddhism or Islamic Sufism, a key to enlightenment is "transcending" this sort of dualistic thinking, without merely substituting dualism with monism or pluralism."

    I see myself as one of many collectives of organisms that populate this earth; and can appreciate the view that on a global level I am one small insignificant cog within the vast the machinery that makes up life; I will play my part for a finite length of time before rust sets in and at some point cease to function as have many before me. As the rust crumbles away however, so will new cogs be loosened and made free to turn as I once did.
    On a local level however I consider myself distinct from yourself, and distinct from my peers; and unashamedly place a higher import upon my own life and protection of it than that of the majority of humans. (Ie; I may lose a limb for my close friends and family but I'd never be willing to "die for my country" )

    Whether you would call me a dualist I don't know...I'd certainly shrug off the comic book (good vs evil) notion of dualism that is manifest in the major religions of the world today.
  6. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    26 Nov '10 02:44
    Originally posted by vishvahetu
    OK, ........you and everyone else believe that everything is so important, you believe your life is important, your children are important, your job is important, your friends are important, your place of birth is important, your relatives are important, your country is important and so on and so on.

    But all these things are dust in the wind, an illusi ...[text shortened]... s that which develops self realization of self and God, and anything else is of no importance.
    Ok, good.
    Lets clarify a few things and then you can continue the onslaught.
    I dont believe myself, my children, job, friends and relatives are any more important than anyone elses.
    Everyone is entitled to their views, (however ridiculous), I just draw the line at physical violence. If we can get beyond violence (or threats of violence), then we can learn. (Even if they are meat eaters or even not familiar with the Vedas)

    I believe the main point of your post (correct me if I am wrong), is that we should not cling to worldly things that lead to false understanding of the universe we inhabit. Something like that?
  7. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    26 Nov '10 02:541 edit
    Originally posted by Agerg
    Well there are a number of different definitions of "dualism" but assuming you mean in the following sense (wikipedia):

    [i]"Alternatively, dualism can mean the tendency of humans to perceive and understand the world as being divided into two overarching categories. In this sense, it is dualistic when one perceives a tree as a thing separate from everything vs evil) notion of dualism that is manifest in the major religions of the world today.
    Ok, there are different definitions of dualism.

    I want to refer to the sort of dualism that separates us from "god" .
    When christians/theists refer to god/God I interpret that as "god" being a separate entity from the rest of "His creation" . Capice?
    I believe we need to start with a correct premise(s) to be able to understand god.
    If your premise is right then "doors" will open and you can furthur your understanding about life. If it is wrong then you will be like a person in rowboat with only one paddle( you go around in cirlces).

    Anyway , judging by the posts I've read of yours, you dont seem like a dualist. (Not on purpose anyway). The christian (fundamentalists) on here are the ones I level the charge "dualist" against. And thats because they have come out and claimed as much.
    Also, I would see you as a SIGNIFICANT cog. I would see every person, even Hitler, as an integral part of life. For we learn from the good AND the bad.
    And hopefully we (the human race) learns from its mistakes..(or we will be doomed to repeat them)
    Thnx for the response.
  8. Standard memberDasa
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    26 Nov '10 03:121 edit
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Ok, good.
    Lets clarify a few things and then you can continue the onslaught.
    I dont believe myself, my children, job, friends and relatives are any more important than anyone elses.
    Everyone is entitled to their views, (however ridiculous), I just draw the line at physical violence. If we can get beyond violence (or threats of violence), then we can ...[text shortened]... worldly things that lead to false understanding of the universe we inhabit. Something like that?
    Correct.....and Iam just being in your face about it ( because you said attack), because in reality nothing apart from our spiritual welfare is important.....nothing, because what we do materially, is like clouds in the sky......there one minute, and gone the next.
  9. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    26 Nov '10 03:34
    Originally posted by vishvahetu
    Correct.....and Iam just being in your face about it ( because you said attack), because in reality nothing apart from our spiritual welfare is important.....nothing, because what we do materially, is like clouds in the sky......there one minute, and gone the next.
    Yes, be in my face about it, I actually like it. (Inpsired by none other than our illustrious josephw!)

    I do beleive it is important what we do materially, even if it is cloud-like, because we can start, continue (paricipate), in life.
    Having said that I do think that we should have one eye on the spiritual ramifications of our material actions.

    You seem to think that everyone should approach spirituality in the same way. This is never going to happen.
    There are many approaches, and a lot of them start with material ideas.
    Its where these ideas lead to that is important.

    I'm sure you've heard this one but here goes- When one realizes one is asleep, then one already has one eye open.
    In this spirit i reckon its vital to train your brain/mind to be able to meditate at all times. When I say "meditate" I mean keep "one eye" on your centre (pit of your stomach). Anytime. Right now. The more you meditate, the easier it becomes.
    Also, if you find meditation difficult to pratice then thats probably a good thing.
    No nodding off, no pleasent dream-like states. Just hard-core penance with a pure heart.
    One 'eye' turned inwards at all times...
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    26 Nov '10 03:481 edit
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    [b]Just assume my worldview loosely agrees with SOME new age philosohpies.
    I also am sympatheic towards bhuddists psycology/spiritualtity, especially the parts the refer to spiritualty as being something to work out for yourself (rather than witing for JC to save us, for example).
    Ok then, save yourself!! ๐Ÿ˜ต

    Wow, that didn't take long. ๐Ÿ˜›

    Of coure, the question begs, if you can work it out for yourself then why do you need the likes of new age philosophies and such?
  11. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    26 Nov '10 04:15
    Originally posted by whodey
    Ok then, save yourself!! ๐Ÿ˜ต

    Wow, that didn't take long. ๐Ÿ˜›

    Of coure, the question begs, if you can work it out for yourself then why do you need the likes of new age philosophies and such?
    I'm in the process of "saving" myself, however I dont use that terminology (saving).
    "Divination", imo, is a good non-religocentric way of describing the process I believe you are referring to, yes?

    Didn't take long? Good , thnx for your time๐Ÿ™‚

    The "new age philosophies and such" are just a outer expression of my inner (largley non-verbal) life/experience. Its a way I try to communicate with others who may have had similar experiences (which I know they have, its just not always apparent to the experiencer-like dreams, they "live through them" but then largley forget the content of the dream).
    But you are correct there is not much need for philosophies, however even I need a bit of fine tuning for my approach-hence starting silly little self-indulgent threads like this one.
    Thnx for the response๐Ÿ˜‰
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    26 Nov '10 04:44
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    I'm in the process of "saving" myself, however I dont use that terminology (saving).
    "Divination", imo, is a good non-religocentric way of describing the process I believe you are referring to, yes?

    Didn't take long? Good , thnx for your time๐Ÿ™‚

    The "new age philosophies and such" are just a outer expression of my inner (largley non-verbal) life/ ...[text shortened]... e starting silly little self-indulgent threads like this one.
    Thnx for the response๐Ÿ˜‰
    No problem. Anytime you feel the need to be attacked just look me up!! ๐Ÿ˜ต

    Good luck saving yourself....or whatever it is you feel you feel the need to do with what time you have left.
  13. Standard memberDasa
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    26 Nov '10 06:20
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Yes, be in my face about it, I actually like it. (Inpsired by none other than our illustrious josephw!)

    I do beleive it is important what we do materially, even if it is cloud-like, because we can start, continue (paricipate), in life.
    Having said that I do think that we should have one eye on the spiritual ramifications of our material actions. ...[text shortened]... es. Just hard-core penance with a pure heart.
    One 'eye' turned inwards at all times...
    Yes your right, not everyone is going to go sit on a mountain top and meditate, but like the Buddhist say.........before enlightment chop wood, and after enlightment chop wood.

    Bhagavad Gita sums it up nicely:

    Chpt 3. Vs 16-17-18-19

    "My dear Arjuna, one who does not follow in human life cycle of sacrifice thus established by the Vedas certainly leads a life of sin, Living only for the satisfaction of the senses, such a person lives in vain"

    "But for one who takes pleasure in the self, whose human life is one of self realization, and who satisfies the self only, fully satiated for him there is no duty."

    " A self realized man has no purpose to fore-fill in the discharge of his prescribed duties, nor has he any reason to perform such work. Nor has he any need to depend on any other living being."

    " Therefore without being attached to the fruits of activities, one should act as a matter of duty, for by working without attachment one attains the Supreme."

    So in spiritual life the consciousness changes, and the outward life may still carry on the same to the casual observer.
  14. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    26 Nov '10 06:431 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    No problem. Anytime you feel the need to be attacked just look me up!! ๐Ÿ˜ต

    Good luck saving yourself....or whatever it is you feel you feel the need to do with what time you have left.
    See, thats another (apparent) paradox. The time thing. While I may be 36 or whatever, I know in another sense that I am ageless. Just because I have partial amnesia, and have been banished to this class 3-type planet for re-education, doesn't mean that I dont inherintly know that the real "me" is immminent and ageless- unaffected by time.
    And yes, you will scoff, and possibly feel sorry for me , as you are probably older and feel that you can see the end of the road a bit clearer than I, but dude, thats all bogus (to use vishvas term).
    So again, thank you for your time, it is precious, every second, and I appreciate your response...as always whodey. ๐Ÿ™‚
  15. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    26 Nov '10 06:511 edit
    Originally posted by vishvahetu
    Yes your right, not everyone is going to go sit on a mountain top and meditate, but like the Buddhist say.........before enlightment chop wood, and after enlightment chop wood.

    Bhagavad Gita sums it up nicely:

    Chpt 3. Vs 16-17-18-19

    "My dear Arjuna, one who does not follow in human life cycle of sacrifice thus established by the Vedas certainly usness changes, and the outward life may still carry on the same to the casual observer.
    Firstly let me say that that whole "working without attachments" thing is so true. (sorry, could've worded that better).
    Those verses were very good but lets just skip back to your bhuddist/zen quote:
    "before enlightenment chop wood, and after enlightenment chop wood."
    Now thats all very good 'n' all but what happens "DURING" ?
    Here's another one- Before enlightenment mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers , during meditation mountains are no longer mountains and rivers are no longer rivers, after enlightenment mountaions are mountains and rivers are rivers again.

    You see what this implies? (amongst other things). It says to me that during the "enlightenment process" ,(which is where I guess a few of the posters here are at), "mountains no longer are mountains". What does that mean to you?
    To me it means that your whole worldview is suddenly "shaken up" and you realize, on the spot, (thnx beetle ๐Ÿ˜‰ ), that everything was upside down in the first place. Or more accurately put: Your view of everything was basicallly the opposite of how things really are....

    hence the title of the thread...
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