Bhagavad Gita Cht 5 vs22.

Originally posted by bbarr
I'm not sure if this is a worry, or an objection, or simply an observation.

My father died this past January. It wasn't sudden; his illness lingered and drained him. I was here in Seattle, working a long week, when I got the call from my sister that he was going soon. I drove across the Cascade mountains to see him, so that he would know I was there wi ...[text shortened]... s far as I'm concerned, we might as well commit that text to the flames.

Thank you. That was very thought provoking.

Originally posted by bbarr
Why would I want to be liberated from being able to care directly for others,

Presumably, to avoid the pain that goes with such care. (Not that I am promoting such liberation).
But when I have asked rvsakhadeo and others why such liberation (freedom) is desirable, no answer has been forthcoming. It is either assumed to be obvious that freedom is desirable, or it is left as an unexplained motivation ie "for those that want freedom, this is what you must do ....".

Originally posted by FMF
On what "authority" do you claim this is what is "required"? Surely you are not claiming that God told you to tell us this?

Geeta says so. " yat juhoshi, yat ashnasi, yat karosi dadasi yat, yat tapasyasi Kaunteya, kurushwa tat madarpanam ". In English it means whatever you drink, whatever you eat, whatever you do, whatever you give away,whatever Penance you do, oh son of Kunti, gift it to me. " . Since I am at work, I cannot quote chapter and verse but will do so on going home.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Geeta says so. " yat juhoshi, yat ashnasi, yat karosi dadasi yat, yat tapasyasi Kaunteya, kurushwa tat madarpanam ". In English it means whatever you drink, whatever you eat, whatever you do, whatever you give away,whatever Penance you do, oh son of Kunti, gift it to me. " . Since I am at work, I cannot quote chapter and verse but will do so on going home.

If Geeta is an "authority" you submit to, so be it. I respect your freedom to believe what you believe.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Presumably, to avoid the pain that goes with such care. (Not that I am promoting such liberation).
But when I have asked rvsakhadeo and others why such liberation (freedom) is desirable, no answer has been forthcoming. It is either assumed to be obvious that freedom is desirable, or it is left as an unexplained motivation ie "for those that want freedom, this is what you must do ....".

The Lord is pursuading Arjun to give up the hesitation Arjun feels in his forthcoming role as a killer of his cousins and granduncle Bhishma or his Gurus Drona or Kripa. In effect, God says you fight the battle as my instrument. Fight as if you are fighting for me. This will make you free from pleasure or pain. Freedom from the vicissitudes of life is what we want, don't we?

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Freedom from the vicissitudes of life is what we want, don't we?

No.

That is the fundamental claim I have questioned before, and you have never explained why. Last time you made some vague references to culture / tradition / upbringing, but you never actually made an attempt at explaining it.

Originally posted by twhitehead
No.

That is the fundamental claim I have questioned before, and you have never explained why. Last time you made some vague references to culture / tradition / upbringing, but you never actually made an attempt at explaining it.

Well most people want freedom from the vicissitudes of life. Some people who are more intellectual and are scientifically oriented than most, want answers that satisfy them intellectually. I understand that.
Hindu spiritualism has 4 options which one can follow either in isolation or in combination of some or all 4 options/ paths to truth.
First one is the simplest and most recommended for the modern age---i.e. Bhakti or Devotion.
Second one is the Karma Yog for the action oriented people like Arjun i.e. living one's life for God.
Third option is by practice of Meditation, by firstly doing breathing practice to get the breath under control etc. and then calming one's mind etc.
Fourth option is Dnyan Yog i.e. by the study of various documents, listening to experts, asking them questions and realizing the Truth oneself.
The paths are increasingly difficult from no.1 to no.4.
Choose one or all and realize the Truth.
If you are not interested in realizing the Truth,perfectly all right.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Well most people want freedom from the vicissitudes of life. Some people who are more intellectual and are scientifically oriented than most, want answers that satisfy them intellectually. I understand that.
Hindu spiritualism has 4 options which one can follow either in isolation or in combination of some or all 4 options/ paths to truth.
First one is ...[text shortened]... and realize the Truth.
If you are not interested in realizing the Truth,perfectly all right.

Could you or someone familiar with the Geeta comment on the question of personhood of God? I was taught to believe in a "personal God" but there was not a lot of discussion of what that meant.

Tasa seems to be saying that without there being divine personhood, that is, without God being believed in as a person, we could not enter into a relationship with God, much less, a relationship of love and devotion. However, I believe I can have love and devotion to some things, like, say, a principle, an ideal, a cause, perhaps, in the abstract, my country, or life itself. The well known literary device of personification reveals a psychological device is active; and by this device, perhaps came about the pantheons of Greek, Buddhist and other religions; each god representing an aspect of human personality; which became consolidated in our recent past.

Is there a Vedic orthodoxy on the question of the personhood of God, and if so, what is it, and how did it develop? Does it proceed from rationally thinking upon first principles, or is it a matter of pure faith? Can the stories of humans encountering a personified aspect of God be taken as metaphorical accounts of humans encountering an aspect of what it means to be human?

I ask this because I like to think that a person gaining enlightenment may find the question of the personhood of God no longer important, and so I would not like to see the Geeta other ancient source demand that it is important; no matter what the religion is. I cannot help but believe that ancient sources reflect ancient and deeply embedded psychological ways of thinking, that, frankly, may hinder progress if they are supposed to be taken literally.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Well most people want freedom from the vicissitudes of life.

I don't believe you.

If you are not interested in realizing the Truth,perfectly all right.
And I object to you misusing the word 'Truth' to mean 'escapism'. Or is the capitalization of the word your attempt at trademarking the name?

Originally posted by bbarr
I'm not sure if this is a worry, or an objection, or simply an observation.

My father died this past January. It wasn't sudden; his illness lingered and drained him. I was here in Seattle, working a long week, when I got the call from my sister that he was going soon. I drove across the Cascade mountains to see him, so that he would know I was there wi ...[text shortened]... s far as I'm concerned, we might as well commit that text to the flames.

You yourself say that there was no abstraction for your motivation. You simply acted. You did your duty.Nor did you entertain any thoughts about the end result. So that was a perfectly un- attached action similar to what God wants Arjun to take.
Some additional comments:-
Moreover, God does not want any ego to creep in, before one takes any action. " I " did, " I " am doing, "I" will do are the statements that attribute the "Do-ership " or the ownership of the action to oneself. In the Geeta,the Lord says that this is wrong because one gets attached to the actions. Also ego breeds pride, which is one of the 6 enemies God wants us to avoid. Let all actions take place as if they are the desire of God. God is the entity-- in Geeta's own words--- that drives the Ferris wheel of Maya round and round, on which all the souls of all beings are attached. God says that one should try to escape being taken for a ride,so to speak.
Your last flourish of committing the Geeta to flames reminded me of Khalifa Omar who burnt down the library at Alexandria by saying that if the books therein contained thoughts contrary to Koran,that is heresy and hence the books must be destroyed; and if the books contained material similar to Koran,they are superfluous and hence they must burn. Also reminded me of David Hume, please vide page 258 of The Story of Philosophy by Will Durant, Pocket Book edition.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Freedom from the vicissitudes of life is what we want, don't we?

What is wrong with the vicissitudes of life?

Your last flourish of committing the Geeta to flames reminded me of Khalifa Omar who burnt down the library at Alexandria by saying that if the books therein contained thoughts contrary to Koran,that is heresy and hence the books must be destroyed; and if the books contained material similar to Koran,they are superfluous and hence they must burn.[/b]

There's a world of difference between burning a library full of books so that no one else can read them, and someone discarding a book they see as personally worthless because it comes across as profoundly self-absorbed "or inhuman, or autistic" or just as a kind of numbing antidote to the vicissitudes of life. Do you not see the difference?

Originally posted by FMF
What is wrong with the vicissitudes of life?

Each to his/her own. If your view does not match with my view it is ok. I am not expressing any compulsive view about the desirability or otherwise of freeing oneself from the vicissitudes of life or whether one should be stoic about vicissitudes or whether one should enjoy one's vicissitudes etc.

Originally posted by FMF
There's a world of difference between burning a library full of books so that no one else can read them, and someone discarding a book they see as personally worthless because it comes across as profoundly self-absorbed "or inhuman, or autistic" or just as a kind of numbing antidote to the vicissitudes of life. Do you not see the difference?

Do you expect me to simply read such aggressive words about Geeta and keep silent ?

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Do you expect me to simply read such aggressive words about Geeta and keep silent ?

Do you not see the difference between burning down a library of books and burning a single book you don't want?