Originally posted by karoly aczel
"Isn't that valuable advice for everyone?" . Well put,
Conrau K, it is valuable for everyone,imo. Either directly or indirectly.

You have shown a fine understanding of the Gita for someone who is not really into it otherwise.

Seems any support Dasa's message gets , gets attacked straight away by some posters here, regardless of any other good p ...[text shortened]... ents about finding god".

Not very well put there, but anyhoo thanks all the same.

Why do you find it so necessary to present yourself as so insecure and self-pitying. I don't agree with Dasa's constant and utterly jaundiced, dehumanizing assertions, masquerading as "spirituality" when they are more likely to have clinical causes. They don't apply to me. And I don't accept the self-anointed 'solutions' to his self-imposed 'misery and suffering' that's rooted in his undisguised and profound contempt for his fellow man and for the human spirit. And I say so. What does it matter to you?

Originally posted by FMF
Why do you find it so necessary to present yourself as so insecure and self-pitying. I don't agree with Dasa's constant and utterly jaundiced, dehumanizing assertions, masquerading as "spirituality" when they are more likely to have clinical causes. They don't apply to me. And I don't accept the self-anointed 'solutions' to his self-imposed 'misery and suffering ...[text shortened]... or his fellow man and for the human spirit. And I say so. What does it matter to you?

This comment is exactly what I am talking about when referring to intellectualism disguising error and falsity in so many words. ( see my post on intellectualism)

This style of posting is bullying with the intellectual twist to smother the recipient with a dazzling array of meaningless words.

FMF is the master of this word play.

FMF please do not pollute the spirituality forum with your atheistic blather.

However genuine spiritual enquiry is welcomed

Originally posted by Dasa
However genuine spiritual enquiry is welcomed

My above comment was about spirituality, right on the nail. It had nothing to do with "intellectualism". The fact that you pretend my response to karoly wasn't about apirituality says more about you than it does about me and my refusal to accept your misanthropic religionist assertions.

Originally posted by FMF
Why do you find it so necessary to present yourself as so insecure and self-pitying. I don't agree with Dasa's constant and utterly jaundiced, dehumanizing assertions, masquerading as "spirituality" when they are more likely to have clinical causes. They don't apply to me. And I don't accept the self-anointed 'solutions' to his self-imposed 'misery and suffering ...[text shortened]... or his fellow man and for the human spirit. And I say so. What does it matter to you?

You really dont know why it would matter to me to respond that way?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
You really dont know why it would matter to me to respond that way?

If you reckon Dasa puts out 'positive, life affirming posts about another religion'. Then good for you. Why does my refusal to accept his abuse and insults, and his bitter, bitter contempt for humanity, affect you at all? You seemingly want everyone to like you, but you command no respect from me. Deal with it.

Originally posted by FMF
My above comment [b]was about spirituality, right on the nail. It had nothing to do with "intellectualism". The fact that you pretend my response to karoly wasn't about apirituality says more about you than it does about me and my refusal to accept your misanthropic religionist assertions.[/b]

FMF ......your spiritual mind map that allows you to kill was defeated many months ago - however now you are upset that your self styled fabricated ideaology called FMF,s spirituality has been exposed as false - and now your constant atheistic comments are revealing your true nature.

However I am always glad to answer any spiritual enquiry from here on.

Originally posted by Dasa
FMF ......your spiritual mind map that allows you to kill was defeated many months ago - however now you are upset that your self styled fabricated ideaology called FMF,s spirituality has been exposed as false - and now your constant atheistic comments are revealing your true nature.

I respect your right to believe this. I think you are using "defeated" [what a revealing word choice!!] and "exposed" and "atheistic" incorrectly. But I honestly believe you are sincere in your beliefs about me.

Originally posted by Dasa
This comment is exactly what I am talking about when referring to intellectualism disguising error and falsity in so many words. ( see my post on intellectualism)

This style of posting is bullying with the intellectual twist to smother the recipient with a dazzling array of meaningless words.

FMF is the master of this word play.

FMF please do not pollu ...[text shortened]... spirituality forum with your atheistic blather.

However genuine spiritual enquiry is welcomed

Do you realise you used the words: smother, meaningless, pollute, and blather all in the same post?

Originally posted by Dasa
However I am always glad to answer any spiritual enquiry from here on.

As sumydid pointed out on another thread, you invariably dodge, evade, go silent, and do just about anything but address the inquiries, even to the point of answering with a non answer or a gratuitous insult.

Originally posted by FMF
If you reckon Dasa puts out 'positive, life affirming posts about another religion'. Then good for you. Why does my refusal to accept his abuse and insults, and his bitter, bitter contempt for humanity, affect you at all? You seemingly want everyone to like you, but you command no respect from me. Deal with it.

noted.🙂

Originally posted by FMF
No. This seems to me to be trying to replace the real and extraordinary shared experience and potential of the human spirit during its lifetime with a kind of numbness and elaborate conjecture about afterlife, and then passing all this off as being somehow "higher". It actually strikes me as being hollow and wasteful. I think any perceived 'bliss' that may resul ...[text shortened]... s and essentially selfish. It comes across to me as something akin to spiritual anaesthetic.

Geeta says that whatever you do, do it for God. Live your life as if you live for God. Make a present to God not only of your nobler actions such as Charity,Penance but common actions like eating and drinking. This act of giving away to God enables the detachment to take place, painlessly. Lord Krishna understands that a person like Arjun being an action oriented person will naturally be attached to his actions, will expect the fruits of his actions, will be subject to the pain or pleasure as and when the fruits appear or do not appear or appear not as per expectations. He wants Arjun to enjoy actions without worrying about their fruits. What is hollow or numbing about it?

Originally posted by Conrau K
Ok. I think the Gita is very reminiscent of classical Stoicism. It's basic moral command is to detach oneself from mental perturbationes, whether anxiety or desire (in fact, both the Gita and Stoicism connect anxiety with desire -- desire and attachment being the antecedent for all mental disturbances.) In that the Gita is kind of like Stoicism leadi ...[text shortened]... him, acts as he should, but not troubled if the results of his efforts are not fruitful.

Please see my post to FMF above. God says this Karma Yog i.e. living your life as if living for God, is all the spiritual practice that is required. It will lead to your liberation. Of course, easier said than done. Request bbarr's attention also.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
What is hollow or numbing about it?

Treating this life as a preparation for a 'next' one, in accordance with a set of 'instructions' that religionists assert are "from God" - to my way of thinking - is seeking a form of superstitious 'ether' to cope with this life rather than embracing it. Hollow and numbing. And speculative. And rather inclined to turn daydreamers self-righteous and abusive or condescending. It's as if the wonder of this life amounts to nothing more than patting ones self on the back for constructing elaborate hopes that it won't end. It's not a way to live life that I can endorse.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
living your life as if living for God, is all the spiritual practice that is required.

On what "authority" do you claim this is what is "required"? Surely you are not claiming that God told you to tell us this?

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Please see my post to FMF above. God says this Karma Yog i.e. living your life as if living for God, is all the spiritual practice that is required. It will lead to your liberation. Of course, easier said than done. Request bbarr's attention also.

I'm not sure if this is a worry, or an objection, or simply an observation.

My father died this past January. It wasn't sudden; his illness lingered and drained him. I was here in Seattle, working a long week, when I got the call from my sister that he was going soon. I drove across the Cascade mountains to see him, so that he would know I was there with him at the end. I wanted him to know that I loved him.

Now, I don't know what you mean when you say that we should live as if for God, or that our actions should be for God, or as gifts to God. I can understand how that would allow us some measure of detachment, as though whatever we did was sort of "offered up", without expectation of reward and the correlative worries concerning outcomes. But, honestly, the only thing I was thinking about when I drove across the mountains to the hospital was my dad. I didn't think "It will make my dad happy...", or "I owe it to my dad...", as though I was motivated by the value of happiness or out of respect for a debt. I didn't think "A good son would be with his father...", or "family is important...", as though I was motivated by the role of being a son, or by the importance of familial relationships. There was no abstraction to my motivation, and no general, overarching justification for my action that informed my motivation. There was simply this thought: "My dad is dying." And then I got into the car and drove.

So, tell me, how would my motivations have looked if I had done this for God? Would I have had an extra thought? Something in addition to "My dad is dying?", that would serve to motivate me? When I drove across the mountains, racing to see my father before he died, was this supposed to be a gift to God, a prayer, an offering? Because, honestly, that seems to me either profoundly self-absorbed (as though my own spirituality is the focus, rather than my dad), or inhuman, or autistic (if I am actually just playing out the role of 'son' in a cosmic play, while keeping my attention on God). An extra thought here, even if it had been a thought of God, or directed towards God, or offered up to God, would have been one thought too many. It would have been a failure of mine; an indication of ethical fault, had I not been sufficiently motivated by the thought "My dad is dying".

Why would I want to be liberated from being able to care directly for others, or to be motivated directly by the needs of others? If what I do I should do for God, then what I do I should not do merely for you. But it is part of loving another that I act with regard to them for their sake; not merely as objects or instrumental ends, but as ends in and of themselves. So what of this love? Because if that love finds no purchase or place in the Bhagavad Gita, then, as far as I'm concerned, we might as well commit that text to the flames.