Originally posted by galveston75Even if someone were to return from the grave and explain it to you,
Lol... Ok, I'll give you a chance to prove it to me, one final time, by scriptures only that Jesus said he was God to anyone and that the Holy Spirit is God. Simple enough?
you would not understand until the blinders are remove.
Originally posted by KunsooThe question about the Trinity is almost like a debate about whether or not an imaginary friend can have imaginary friends.
I'm not talking about the authority conveyed as is the subject of the other thread. I'm referencing the doctrine that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all one entity. Is there anything in the Bible which is explicit on the subject?
Jehovah's Witnesses say no, as do a few other Christian sects. I've seen obscure references, but you would think that ...[text shortened]... esus is God, you cannot have grace.
Thoughts? Other passages I'm missing?
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Originally posted by galveston75You have been given scriptures, in which the Father is called God,
Dodging again I see. Where are the scriptures???????????????? Uh, maybe there are none?
the Son (Yahshua) is called God, and the Holy Spirit is called God.
Then there are many scriptures that say God is one. So it stands to
reason that if each of these 3 persons are God and there is only 1
true God, then this 1 true God is a Triune God. It is that simple.
Originally posted by RJHinds"I'll give you a chance to prove it to me, one final time, by scriptures only that Jesus said he was God to anyone and that the Holy Spirit is God. Simple enough?"
You have been given scriptures, in which the Father is called God,
the Son (Yahshua) is called God, and the Holy Spirit is called God.
Then there are many scriptures that say God is one. So it stands to
reason that if each of these 3 persons are God and there is only 1
true God, then this 1 true God is a Triune God. It is that simple.
Remember this? Still no scriptures?
Originally posted by galveston75Evidence of the Trinity of God:
"I'll give you a chance to prove it to me, one final time, by scriptures only that Jesus said he was God to anyone and that the Holy Spirit is God. Simple enough?"
Remember this? Still no scriptures?
Jesus said, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in THE
NAME of THE FATHER and THE SON and THE HOLY SPIRIT..."
(Matthew 28:18-19 NASB)
The word "name" is singular in the Greek text, indicationg that there is
ONE GOD, but THREE DISTINCT PERSONS within the GODHEAD --
THE FATHER, THE SON, THE HOLY SPIRIT. First He asserts the UNITY
of THE THREE by combining THEM into a single NAME, and then He
emphasizes the distinctness of each by introducing them in turn with the
repeated article. We know that the Father and the Son are persons and
the fact that the Holy Spirit is included should prove to you that He is a
person also. The disciples were commanded to baptise in THEIR NAME.
What is THEIR NAME and the authority for this baptism?
After this instruction, what NAME did the disciples use when they baptized?
See Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:48, and 19:5.
Could it have been YAHshua? HalleluYAH!
Peter said, "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name
given under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be
saved." (Acts 4:12 NASB)
Was Yahshua (Jesus) the only begotten Son of God?
(Hebrews 1:5)
Did God the Father command the angels to worship the Son?
(Hebrews 1:6)
Did God the Father call the Son, God?
(Hebrews 1:8)
Originally posted by RJHindsAs I asked you earlier with this scripture in Matt where it says clearly that this authority was "given" to him. Who gave it too him? If he was God one would think that God would already have all the authority in the universe, why would it still have to be "given to him?
Evidence of the Trinity of God:
Jesus said, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in THE
NAME of THE FATHER and THE SON and THE HOLY SPIRIT..."
(Matthew 28:18-19 NASB)
The word "name" is singular in the Greek text, indicationg that there is
ONE GOD, but THREE ...[text shortened]... to worship the Son?
(Hebrews 1:6)
Did God the Father call the Son, God?
(Hebrews 1:8)
So yes this authority was "given" to him by his father Jehovah because as the Bible clearly explains it is the rerward that Jesus earned and it is a position Jehovah is letting his son have. It does not say that Jesus is the only one with authority, does it? Does it say that the Faher has no authority any longer? Does it?
And two names are mentioned here. The Father's and the Son's. If they were the same, why two names? Maybe because they are two different beings as in Jehovah and Jesus?
And again for the 20th time, why does the Holy Spirit not have a name?????????????????????
And yes the word "name" is singular in any language I know on the earth, but it never means 3 in 1. It means ((((((( 1 ))))))))
And again Jehovah gave his son Jesus the authority to decide life or not for all on earth. It does not say that his Father Jehovah no longer has that authority too. But for a limited time he has given that authority to his son Jesus. No different then a president of a country giving authority to Judges to decide life or death to ones commiting crimes.
And the verses in Hebrew are self explanitory as yes Jehovah again is giving his son Jesus the very deserved honor and the rewards that he deserves. Jesus is higher and more powerful then the angels and was given immortality by his Father Jehovah. Jesus did not have immortality before this. So how could he be Jehovah if he was not immortal before?
So...I still see no scriptural proof that Jesus ever said he was Almighty God or no proof that the Holy Spirit is God..............
Why??????????
Originally posted by galveston75Pfffffft 😞
As I asked you earlier with this scripture in Matt where it says clearly that this authority was "given" to him. Who gave it too him? If he was God one would think that God would already have all the authority in the universe, why would it still have to be "given to him?
So yes this authority was "given" to him by his father Jehovah because as the Bib ...[text shortened]... was Almighty God or no proof that the Holy Spirit is God..............
Why??????????
Originally posted by galveston75Jesus says, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, who is and who was and
As I asked you earlier with this scripture in Matt where it says clearly that this authority was "given" to him. Who gave it too him? If he was God one would think that God would already have all the authority in the universe, why would it still have to be "given to him?
So yes this authority was "given" to him by his father Jehovah because as the Bib ...[text shortened]... was Almighty God or no proof that the Holy Spirit is God..............
Why??????????
who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8)
And again Jesus says, "Do not be afraid, I am the first and the last, and
the living One; and I was dead,and behold, I am alive forevermore, and
I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Revelation 1:17-18)
And again Jesus says, "Behold, I am coming quickly, and MY reward is
with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. I am
the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the
end." (Revelation 22:12-13 "I Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to
you these things for the churches. I am the root and the offspring of
David, the bright morning star." (Revelation 22:16)
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Originally posted by RJHindsQuestions from readers?
Jesus says, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, who is and who was and
who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8)
And again Jesus says, "Do not be afraid, I am the first and the last, and
the living One; and I was dead,and behold, I am alive forevermore, and
I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Revelation 1:17-18)
And again Jesus says, "Behold, I a I am the root and the offspring of
David, the bright morning star." (Revelation 22:16)
Revelation 22:13 (NW) speaks of the “Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end”. At Revelation 1:17 (NW) Christ Jesus is spoken of as “the First and the Last”. So is not Revelation 22:13 also referring to Christ? The context sounds like it, yet the Watchtower publications say Jehovah is the “Alpha and the Omega”. Why?—J. J., New Jersey.
Alpha is the first letter of the Greek alphabet, and omega is the last; one is the beginning and the other the end of the Greek alphabet. So the expressions “the Alpha and the Omega” and “the first and the last” and “the beginning and the end” are parallel expressions and mean the same thing. They are applied to Jehovah God. Isaiah 44:6 (AS) reads: “Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God.”
Revelation 1:8 catches up this thought in Isaiah and adds to it the point that he is coming: “‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says Jehovah God, ‘the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.’”
So just because the verse preceding Revelation 22:13 speaks of that “Alpha and Omega” as coming does not necessarily mean it refers to Christ Jesus, whose second coming is frequently mentioned. Revelation 1:8 shows Jehovah as coming, and so Revelation 22:12 may do likewise. He comes representatively, through Christ Jesus.
Revelation 4:8 speaks of Jehovah as coming, and Revelation 21 shows his presence with humankind. “Look! the tent of God is with humankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. . . . I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the fountain of the water of life free. Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.” (Vss. 3, 6, 7)
This reference is certainly to Jehovah God, for he is God to the anointed body members of Christ and they are his spiritual sons. They are Christ’s brothers, not sons, so the text is speaking of Jehovah, and it calls him “the Alpha and the Omega”. So when the Alpha and Omega is mentioned again in the very next chapter, why must the term suddenly shift to Christ Jesus instead of Jehovah God? It does not.
Some argue that it refers to Christ Jesus at Revelation 22:13 because verse 16 shows Jesus speaking. But that does not mean the speaker of the preceding verses must also be Jesus. The use of the single quotation marks in the New World Translation shows a change in speakers between verses 15 and 16. We must remember that the revelation God gave to Jesus Christ was passed on to the apostle John by one of Christ’s angels, and that this angel sometimes spoke for Jehovah God and sometimes for Christ Jesus; so we must watch for these changes and note them on the basis of content and context.
It is true that when the angel speaks for Christ, at Revelation 1:17 , he states: “I am the First and the Last.” But a check of the context shows this “First and Last” was with definite limitations, was relative to just the matter of Christ Jesus’ death and resurrection, as verse 18 shows. Christ was the first one raised in the first resurrection, and the last one that will be raised directly by Jehovah God.
Others who follow in that resurrection will be raised by God through Christ. (John 6:40; 1 Cor. 6:14) In fact, this limitation is also shown by the footnote on “First” in Revelation 1:17 in the New World Translation, where “First” is shown to mean “Firstborn” by one ancient manuscript. Christ was the firstfruits of those asleep in death. (1 Cor. 15:20) When “First and Last” is again applied to Christ Jesus, at Revelation 2:8, note that again it is with respect to death and resurrection. But when it speaks thus of Jehovah no limitation is set on the meaning.
So we must be reasonable. When we see an expression that is applied to Jehovah several times in its unlimited sense, and then come across it again but not specifically indicated as applying to Jehovah, we cannot become flighty and switch the expression to Christ Jesus; and especially when we note that it is applied elsewhere, not in its unlimited sense, but only with definite limitation of meaning. Trinitarians try to capitalize on this expression to show it was used indiscriminately for either God or Christ, and in this way show God and Christ are the same. But logic and reason do not allow this, no more than do many other texts in the Bible.
I'm still waiting for the scripture where Jesus says...I am God?
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Originally posted by galveston75I'm still waiting for the scripture where Jesus says...I am God?
Questions from readers?
Revelation 22:13 (NW) speaks of the “Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end”. At Revelation 1:17 (NW) Christ Jesus is spoken of as “the First and the Last”. So is not Revelation 22:13 also referring to Christ? The context sounds like it, yet the Watchtower publications say Jehovah is the “Alpha ...[text shortened]... ther texts in the Bible.
I'm still waiting for the scripture where Jesus says...I am God?
You've been given many scriptures over and over proving Jesus is God but you do nothing but try and explain them away with your JW lies and bull crap. How do you say in Greek to "Give it a rest" since you think you know so much greek? Once you figure it out remember it.
The Greek translation says:
Jhn 14:8Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us."
Jhn 14:9Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
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Originally posted by KingDavid403But where is the scripture that's quoting Jesus saying he is in fact God himself and he and Jehovah are the same?
[b]I'm still waiting for the scripture where Jesus says...I am God?
You've been given many scriptures over and over proving Jesus is God but you do nothing but try and explain them away with your JW lies and bull crap. How do you say in Greek to "Give it a rest" since you think you know so much greek? Once you figure it out remember it.
The ? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?[/b][/b]
And come to think of it where is 1 simple scripture that the Holy Spirit says "I also am God or I'm Jesus or I'm Jehovah?"
Just simply show those couple quotes and I'll let this go. I'll be waiting!!!!
Jhn 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Over and over again.... Jesus represents his Father. He is his spokesman or the "word". Jesus does not say he is the Father here. If he was the Father, why didn't he just say: I am the Father?
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Originally posted by galveston75Blah blah blah! How is He spokesman for the Father when He says if you see me you see the Father?? How does He ask Philip " How have I been with you so long Philip and still you do not know Me??? He who sees me sees the Father.
But where is the scripture that's quoting Jesus saying he is in fact God himself and he and Jehovah are the same?
And come to think of it where is 1 simple scripture that the Holy Spirit says "I also am God or I'm Jesus or I'm Jehovah?"
Just simply show those couple quotes and I'll let this go. I'll be waiting!!!!
Jhn 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Hav is the Father here. If he was the Father, why didn't he just say: I am the Father?
And as I've told you before I don't believe in the Trinity. But I do know that Jesus was God in the flesh and is God the Father today and always.
But where is the scripture that's quoting Jesus saying he is in fact God himself and he and Jehovah are the same?
Jhn 14:8Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us."
Jhn 14:9Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
Why don't you go do what JWs do and knock on peoples doors and bother them in person. Can't you handle the doors being slammed in your face or what??
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Originally posted by KingDavid403Exodus 33:20
Blah blah blah! How is He spokesman for the Father when He says if you see me you see the Father?? How does He ask Philip " How have I been with you so long Philip and still you do not know Me??? He who sees me sees the Father.
And as I've told you before I don't believe in the Trinity. But I do know that Jesus was God in the flesh and is God th seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄[/b]
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
20 And He said, "Thou canst not see My face, for there shall no man see Me and live."
No man has ever seen God. No man can see him and lived. So if Jesus was God either when he was a man or after he was resurrected and now in spirit, he could not be God as many humans had seen Jesus.
So these scriptures your quoting here could not apply to God Almighty. Jesus is never called God Almighty anywhere in the Bible.
Again the very simple point that trinitarians always miss is Jesus is God's spokesman or tells us what God says. That is why Jesus is called the "WORD". Until trinitairians ever get this point correct, you will never get who Jesus is..........
Why God’s Son is called “the Word?”
A title often describes the function served or the duty performed by the bearer. So it was with the title Kal-Hatzé, meaning “the voice or word of the king,” that was given an Abyssinian officer. Based on his travels from 1768 to 1773, James Bruce describes the duties of the Kal-Hatzé as follows. He stood by a window covered with a curtain through which, unseen inside, the king spoke to this officer. He then conveyed the message to the persons or party concerned. Thus the Kal-Hatzé acted as the word or voice of the Abyssinian king.—Travels to Discover the Source of the Nile, London, 1790, Vol. III, p. 265; Vol. IV, p. 76.
Recall, too, that God made Aaron the word or “mouth” of Moses, saying: “He must speak for you to the people; and it must occur that he will serve as a mouth to you, and you will serve as God to him.”—Ex 4:16.
In a similar way God’s firstborn Son doubtless served as the Mouth, or Spokesman, for his Father, the great King of Eternity. He was God’s Word of communication for conveying information and instructions to the Creator’s other spirit and human sons. It is reasonable to think that prior to Jesus’ coming to earth, on many of the occasions when God communicated with humans he used the Word as his angelic mouthpiece. (Ge 16:7-11; 22:11; 31:11; Ex 3:2-5; Jg 2:1-4; 6:11, 12; 13:3) Since the angel that guided the Israelites through the wilderness had ‘Jehovah’s name within him,’ he may have been God’s Son, the Word.—Ex 23:20-23.
Try to get the point of this scripture!!!!!!!!!!!
(((((((((((((((((( Showing that Jesus continued to serve as his Father’s Spokesman, or Word, during his earthly ministry, he told his listeners: “I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak. . . . Therefore the things I speak, just as the Father has told me them, so I speak them.”—Joh 12:49, 50; 14:10; 7:16, 17.))))))))))))))))))