13 Aug 11
Originally posted by menace71Hey no problem. I do seem to be getting worse with reading as I get older. The ole eyes are going south.
I never said he did not die I said DEATH could not hold him 🙂 Now I will insult you because you really do lack reading comprehension skills LOL
(The Top part is about Jesus)
Manny
I was asking what happened to Enoch? Enoch was taken by God. The bible does not say where however. Did God kill Enoch's flesh Body then take him to heaven?
Manny
And yes you are correct about death not holding Jesus. But this brings out the pont that it took his Father to resurrect him. Jesus could not have done that on his own as he was dead.
And it's late and going to bed so here is what I have in Enoch for you.
The son born to Jared at the age of 162; the seventh man in the genealogical line from Adam. In addition to Methuselah, who was born to him when he was 65 years old, Enoch had other sons and daughters. Enoch was one of the “so great a cloud of witnesses” who were outstanding examples of faith in ancient times. “Enoch kept walking with the true God.” (Ge 5:18, 21-24; Heb 11:5; 12:1) As a prophet of Jehovah, he foretold God’s coming with His holy myriads to execute judgment against the ungodly. (Jude 14, 15) Likely persecution was brought against him because of his prophesying. However, God did not permit the opposers to kill Enoch. Instead, Jehovah “took him,” that is, cut short his life at the age of 365, an age far below that of most of his contemporaries. Enoch was “transferred so as not to see death,” which may mean that God put him in a prophetic trance and then terminated Enoch’s life while he was in the trance so that he did not experience the pangs of death. (Ge 5:24; Heb 11:5, 13) However, he was not taken to heaven, in view of Jesus’ clear statement at (((((( John 3:13.)))))))))
John 3:13
Amplified Bible (AMP)
13And yet no one has ever gone up to heaven, but there is One Who has come down from heaven--the Son of Man [Himself], [a]Who is (dwells, has His home) in heaven.
It appears that, as in the case of Moses’ body, Jehovah disposed of Enoch’s body, for “he was nowhere to be found.”—De 34:5, 6; Jude 9.
15 Aug 11
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75Hebrews 11:5 New American Standard Version states the following
But where? Does it say he was taken to heaven? Doesn't the scripture clearly say no one went to heaven before Jesus? So where do you think?
By faith Enoch was taken UP so that he should NOT see DEATH; and
he was not found because GOD TOOK him UP; for he obtained the
witness that before his being taken UP he was pleasing God.
HEAVEN is UP; HELL is DOWN. It says God took him UP and the
implication is that God took him UP into HEAVEN because it says
he pleased God. GOD is UP in HEAVEN. It also says God took him
UP so that he should NOT see DEATH. The DEAD go to the GRAVE,
which is DOWN. If God took Enoch UP so he should NOT see DEATH,
why would God KILL him, as you say, for then he would see DEATH?
I believe the verse you think says no man has gone to heaven is
mistranslated, because the Holy Bible does not contradict itself.
John 3:13 is the verse in question. It is a statement from Jesus saying,
"And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from
heaven, even the Son of Man. (NASB)
The translation of the two Greek words meaning "If" and "not" to "but",
or in some modern translations to "except", is where I believe the error
occurred.
According to the Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, 1961 edition,
one definition for "but" when used as a conjunction is follows:
2. Introducing a subordinate clause: a. If not; unless
These two words when used together are often translated either
"unless" or "except". If you look at John 3:3, these two Greek
words are translated "unless" in the NASB and "except" in the KJV.
If you did not use either of these single words to translate the two
Greek words you would have to separate the words for it to make
sense in English and it would appear like the following:
"And no one has gone up into heaven if the Son of Man has not
come down out of heaven."
If we used the proper word "unless" instead of "except" we would
get something like this:
"And no one has gone up into heaven unless the Son of Man has
come down out of heaven."
So I don't think Jesus was contradicting the statement that Enoch
was taken up by God so Enoch should not see death.
16 Aug 11
I wrote an article about this some time back,
Here it is
---------------
The Warning To Our Age
The original Apostles who established the early church left to us warnings of what would be happening in the last days and just as they predicted the events descried in these warnings are coming to pass. The most pressing being the one given below.
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
Now let me explain how this warning is coming to pass. The mechanics behind it and how it effects the saints ability to operate in the spirit.
This is being fulfilled in the current controversy sweeping the body of Christ concerning the Oneness verses Trinity doctrines or the presentation of Jesus is God himself doctrine. Yes Jesus is certainly a part of the Godhead and worthy to be praised but he is also a distinct and separate personality from God himself.
To demonstrate the distinction between the two personalities of Jesus and God please consider this list of verses;
Mat 20:21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Luk 22:69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Heb 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Now this is just taken from the New Testament with three simple word searches only. I could easily double this list if I dig a bit deeper and I could double that again if I included the Old Testament as well. The evidence is over whelming. I do not see how anyone who has spent any time in the scriptures cannot see the separation of the persons of Jesus and God himself. It should be so obviously clear. Jesus is the one that redeemed us with his own Blood shed on the cross and he is our King and Lord and the head of the body of saints but God is still our God. Jesus always kept pointing us to God making it clear that the only way to get to God was through himself.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Now it is obvious from those two lists of scripture that Jesus is our high priest before the throne of God making intercession for us. It is also obvious that Jesus is the mediator between men and God and it is only through Jesus that we can be reconciled to God. It is also obvious that Jesus is currently seated at the right hand of God. He is not on the throne of God or trying to show us that he is God. Only to note is that the throne of God on which God actually sits is associated with Power. When Jesus sits on the right hand of God he is sitting on the right hand of Power.
All this brings us back to the original warning
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
These deceived saints have Jesus, they have a form of Godliness and a form of biblical theology but they are denying the power of it which is God himself. They lift up Jesus as God claiming him to be God which of course leaves the God that sent him here in the first place where ? God actually is the power behind everything and he is being denied because he has been replaced by Jesus who is being presented as God when all the time Jesus made it quite clear that he is the Son of God and himself obedient to God his Father. Hence we now have a form of godliness, but the power has been denied just as the warnings given us by the original Apostles warned us would happen.
So the next question is, why is this so bad ? So long as you have Jesus you are saved right !
Wrong ! You need the real Jesus not the replacement or counterfeit Jesus if you want to be a partaker of salvation.
When I first came across the Jesus is God or oneness doctrine I did not give it much thought and just considered it another denominational doctrine of which there are plenty. It was only after I experienced the violence and ruthlessness associated with the promotion of it that I started to grasp that this was not a simple denominational doctrine but something that had a demonic influence associated with it that was pushing for its acceptance and inclusion no matter the cost to the saints themselves.
Lets go back and look at the Ten Commandments which J...
16 Aug 11
Lets go back and look at the Ten Commandments which Jesus also affirmed so as to see the effects of this new Oneness doctrine.
Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Those are the first two commandments.
1) You will have no other God but God himself. There is only one God and you will only worship him no matter what other deity you are introduced to.
2) You will not make any graven image or idol of any kind to any form of god or deity to worship or pay homage to.
Now this is what has happened !
God gave to the children of Adam an exceedingly precious and eternal gift in the form of Jesus who was to be our Messiah or Christ that would open the way for us in our fallen state to come to Himself and be reconciled to Himself. What has happened is that we have taken that irreplaceable gift and fashioned Christ into an Idol and then used that Idol as a replacement for God himself. We have taken Gods gift to us and replaced Him with it. Could a more diabolical scheme hatched in the depths of hell be found to bring about the fall of the church ?
What has happened is that the church itself, because of the adoption of this oneness (Jesus is God) doctrine, has been beguiled into falling into the sin of idolatry and as a result has been separated from the protection and power that comes from God and his throne of grace. The now powerless church has become the plaything of demons with the result that just all the sins of the world is now manifested in it and adopted by it and upheld as acceptable by it. Is it any wonder that dominion theology has taken root or that Mammon is now equated with blessings or that sexual perversions of all types are not only tolerated but in some cases openly promoted. To the world the church has no salt, it has become a joke of ridicule.
In fact what we now have is the great falling away.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The fruits of this Jesus is God doctrine should be apparent to all but the professing saints caught up in this are already so blinded that they can no longer discern what is taking place anymore. They are convinced that if they do not lift Jesus up into the position of his Father God so that he is his Father God they are denying him and therefore condemning their own souls. All the while all they are doing is paving the way for the Son of Perdition to make his grand appearance and of course they will also be the ones following him when he does present himself because they will believe that this is simply another manifestation of the return of God in the flesh. The number of deceived saints falling for this will be in the millions.
I can do no more than explain and warn but now you know what is happening you that are still left can use the knowledge to come against this in prayer so not all perish in this delusion. What you can also do is pass this on to others via e-mail that you know will benefit from it. There is a place where this can be discussed;
http://www.deeperunderstandingsintheword.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=2166&sid=640661bcbfcb05bda75be4b043b4ae3a
If any find fault with this understanding this place is where opinions can be voiced freely without fear of retribution or excommunications.
Blessings in the name of our Lord Jesus and God our Father.
16 Aug 11
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHindsNo the Bible does not contradict itself so there has to be an answer that does not contradict the scripture that clearly says "NO" man has gone to heaven before Jesus did.
Hebrews 11:5 New American Standard Version states the following
By faith Enoch was taken UP so that he should NOT see DEATH; and
he was not found because GOD TOOK him UP; for he obtained the
witness that before his being taken UP he was pleasing God.
HEAVEN is UP; HELL is DOWN. It says God took him UP and the
implication is that God took him UP in ment that Enoch
was taken up by God so Enoch should not see death.
So what did God take? Was it his body, spirit? Did he continue to exist somewhere? Not according to other scriptures that describes death for us all.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 & 10
New Living Translation (NLT)
5 The living at least know they will die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward, nor are they remembered.
10 Whatever you do, do well. For when you go to the grave, there will be no work or planning or knowledge or wisdom.
According to these two scriptures as well as others when your dead your simply dead and just waiting for a resurrection to either heaven ( Only after Jesus was resurrected did that start ) or to earth.
So Enoch's life force was just taken back by God or UP to him as he is the life giver and taker of us all.
Nothing more then that unless you can find some scripture that clearly says Enoch went to heaven to live.
PS...stop changing the words and meanings in the Bible. It doesn't work.
16 Aug 11
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75It says that Enoch did NOT die so you can rule out that he died G-75
No the Bible does not contradict itself so there has to be an answer that does not contradict the scripture that clearly says "NO" man has gone to heaven before Jesus did.
So what did God take? Was it his body, spirit? Did he continue to exist somewhere? Not according to other scriptures that describes death for us all.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 & 10
Ne heaven to live.
PS...stop changing the words and meanings in the Bible. It doesn't work.
Interesting thing is Enoch was in contrast to everyone else then died !!
Manny
16 Aug 11
Originally posted by TravelerTSo what do you mean Jesus is a part of the Godhead? Is the Holy Spirit also a part of the Godhead? Are they still a 3 in 1 God by your explination?
I wrote an article about this some time back,
Here it is
---------------
The Warning To Our Age
The original Apostles who established the early church left to us warnings of what would be happening in the last days and just as they predicted the events descried in these warnings are coming to pass. The most pressing being the one given below. ...[text shortened]... the cost to the saints themselves.
Lets go back and look at the Ten Commandments which J...
16 Aug 11
Originally posted by TravelerTThere is no discussion going on here between the Oneness verses
I wrote an article about this some time back,
Here it is
---------------
The Warning To Our Age
The original Apostles who established the early church left to us warnings of what would be happening in the last days and just as they predicted the events descried in these warnings are coming to pass. The most pressing being the one given below. ...[text shortened]... the cost to the saints themselves.
Lets go back and look at the Ten Commandments which J...
Trinity doctrine. We have been discussing the Trinity Doctrine
verses the Jehovah's Witnesses doctine that denies the Holy Spirit,
the Son, and the Father are persons in the Godhead. The JWs view
the Trinity as a false pagan doctrine. If you want to discuss the
Oneness doctrine I suggest you start a new thread.
16 Aug 11
Originally posted by galveston75But it clearly states that "Enoch was taken UP so that he should
No the Bible does not contradict itself so there has to be an answer that does not contradict the scripture that clearly says "NO" man has gone to heaven before Jesus did.
So what did God take? Was it his body, spirit? Did he continue to exist somewhere? Not according to other scriptures that describes death for us all.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 & 10
Ne ...[text shortened]... heaven to live.
PS...stop changing the words and meanings in the Bible. It doesn't work.
NOT see DEATH." Did you miss that part?
16 Aug 11
Originally posted by TravelerTInteresting note Jesus was (Is still) the High Priest in the order of Melchizedek. Without beginning or end. Also unlike the Aaronic priesthood the Melchizedek priesthood unites king and priest into one!!
I wrote an article about this some time back,
Here it is
---------------
The Warning To Our Age
The original Apostles who established the early church left to us warnings of what would be happening in the last days and just as they predicted the events descried in these warnings are coming to pass. The most pressing being the one given below. ...[text shortened]... the cost to the saints themselves.
Lets go back and look at the Ten Commandments which J...
Manny
16 Aug 11
Originally posted by menace71Hebrews 11:5
It says that Enoch did NOT die so you can rule out that he died G-75
Interesting thing is Enoch was in contrast to everyone else then died !!
Manny
King James Version (KJV)
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Again Manny go back and reread the post I sent on Enoch. The fact is NO one was resurrected to heaven before Jesus. If he truly went to heaven alive and conscience then the Bible lies about this. Do you think that? You must if you can't see what this is saying.
Re read my post, look up the scriptures and think on it.
16 Aug 11
Originally posted by galveston75I think you are missing the point.
Not at all......Your missing the whole point.
Does it not say in Genesis that at DEATH the body returns to
the dust of the earth and the spirit returns to God that gave it?
But Enoch, body and spirit, was taken up (translated up) so
he should not see DEATH.