Born again!

Originally posted by sonship
Titus 3:5 - [b] ... He saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit ..."

The Greek word for English regeneration in verse 5 is different from the regenerated in 1 Pet. 2:23. That used in 1 Peter. 2:23 is means born again.

The word used in Titus 3:5 is used in only one other pla ...[text shortened]... e Christian throughout his or her whole life until the completion of the new creation.[/b]

So when is this completed? Is a person saved now or after this is completion is done?
Keep it simple....

Originally posted by galveston75
So when is this completed? Is a person saved now or after this is completion is done?
Keep it simple....

Keeping it simple - By the time of the new heaven and new earth in Revelation 21 and 22 every human being that has been born again will have had the process completed. Some overcomers, a remnant, have it completed before then.

And here is a verse probably related to the this completion -

" For the anxious watching of the creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God. ... that the creation itself will also be freed from the slavery of corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God." (See Romans 8:19-21)

And here also -

"Because those whom He foreknew He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." (v.29)

The sign of the New Jerusalem is the totality of the matured fully transformed sons of God.

Originally posted by sonship
Titus 3:5 - [b] ... He saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit ..."

The Greek word for English regeneration in verse 5 is different from the regenerated in 1 Pet. 2:23. That used in 1 Peter. 2:23 is means born again.

The word used in Titus 3:5 is used in only one other pla ...[text shortened]... e Christian throughout his or her whole life until the completion of the new creation.[/b]

Thanks for the info...I wish the JW's could understand the impact of this...
This new birth also gave us the faith of Jesus Christ and the mind of Christ in our spirit...

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Thanks for the info...I wish the JW's could understand the impact of this...
This new birth also gave us the faith of Jesus Christ and the mind of Christ in our spirit...

See if a brief word you can understand.

In the millennial kingdom and in the new heaven and new earth there will be nations of people under the reign and rule of the sons of God.

To them they are unregenerated people who are restored back to the condition of Adam before the fall of man.

Actually, most of what the Jehovah's Witness teach sounds more like things pertaining to these people. They are transfered from the tribulation into the millennial kingdom. And afterward some transfered from the millennial kingdom into the age of eternity.

These are the people "healed" by the leaves of the tree of life in symbolism. "And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."

The sons of God are those who eat the fruit of the tree of life.

Here is the difference. The latter are sons of God with God indwelling them and saturated by the divine life. The former are not regenerated but are healed and restored to be as Adam was before he fell.

Not many evangelical Christians see this or would agree with this. I have been persuaded of it through careful study with astute students of the Scriptures.

What this implies is that some people will live everlastingly who are not born again. But God's top purpose is not with them but with His sons of God who are in union with God with Christ as His Bride and counterpoint.

The sheep of Matthew 25:31-46 furnish the peoples transfered from the great tribulation time into the millennial kingdom to be ruled over by the sons of God.

The sons of God do not rule over each other. And there must be some peoples there for them to reign over and also to be the nations around to witness the glory of Israel.

Originally posted by galveston75
Thanks. One needs to think about the duties these "chosen ones" or the 144,000 will be doing. As the Bible describes they will be ruling with Jesus as judges and kings over mankind that are here on earth.
The reason for a small amount is just as the legal system is today in most countries, you don't need millions of judges to rule and to make decisions ...[text shortened]... says that the earth will be for man's use forever, just as he planned from the beginning.

But why create a heaven where only 144,000 get in? Why 144,000, why not 200,000 or indeed 10? If this is all happening in eternity then why not 1 person as they have no time restrictions.

Originally posted by Velns
But why create a heaven where only 144,000 get in? Why 144,000, why not 200,000 or indeed 10? If this is all happening in eternity then why not 1 person as they have no time restrictions.

First the terms new heaven and new earth are symbolic. They are not physically destroyed and then re created. Why in reality would that have to happen?
If you look at the scriptures of the time that speaks of Jesus fighting with satan, it shows that of course Jesus wins and then cast satan and his demons down to earth.
So from that time on the spiritual heavens where God, Jesus and the angels reside are not longer influanced, affected or polluted by satan. He can no loger leave the vicinity of the earth.
Now the scriptures speak of Jesus preparing a place for the symbolic bride to be able to reside at.
All of this is in the now cleansed heaven.
So this is the now "new heaven" that the bible is speaking of.
The new earth will be the earth after it has been completely cleansed of satan and his demons.
Again the earth is fine and no need at all to destroy it and create a new one. It only needs to be cleaned of all badness from both wicked humans and satan.


Now why the number 144,000?

Here is a little info on this number:

"Multiples of 12 are also sometimes significant. David established 24 divisions of the priesthood to serve by turn in the temple later built by Solomon. (1Ch 24:1-18) This assists in identifying the “twenty-four elders” who were seated round about God’s throne in white outer garments and who were wearing crowns. (Re 4:4) The footstep followers of Jesus Christ, his spiritual brothers, are promised kingship and priesthood with him in the heavens. These elders could not be only the apostles, who numbered just 12. They therefore evidently represent the entire body of the “royal priesthood,” the 144,000 (as represented in the 24 priestly divisions serving at the temple) in their positions in the heavens, as crowned kings and priests.—1Pe 2:9; Re 7:4-8; 20:6."

Also:

The patriarch Jacob had 12 sons, who became the foundations of the 12 tribes of Israel. Their offspring were organized by God under the Law covenant as God’s nation. Twelve therefore seems to represent a complete, balanced, divinely constituted arrangement. (Ge 35:22; 49:28) Jehovah chose 12 apostles, who form the secondary foundations of the New Jerusalem, built upon Jesus Christ. (Mt 10:2-4; Re 21:14) There are 12 tribes of “the sons of [spiritual] Israel,” each tribe consisting of 12,000 members.—Re 7:4-8.

So first this is a number spoken of in the Bible and not one that the JW's made up. And these numbers were used in other situations by gods people as we see with David. And this number of 144,000 has to be taken as literal because of the other things spoken of such as the great crowd that is uncountable.

Originally posted by Velns
But why create a heaven where only 144,000 get in? Why 144,000, why not 200,000 or indeed 10? If this is all happening in eternity then why not 1 person as they have no time restrictions.

I have some questions for you.

Do want to go to heaven? If so why? What would you do there?
Would you not miss your loved ones back here on earth as they would miss you?
Does salvation only come to those who go to heaven? What about the ones the Bible says will inherit the earth? What if you do go to heaven but all the rest of your family are the ones who inherit the earth? Would that not possibly be a sad thing?

Remember the earth was made for man and everything we need is here especially once Jesus the ruling King takes all wickedness away and Jehovah his Father takes away all sicknesses, hunger, crime and even death away forever.
Does this not sound like a good deal?
Yes a few are picked by God to go to heaven to rule with his son and the bible says his spirit becomes one with their spirit or mental desires and then their desire is to go to heaven and that is a good thing for them and a happy desire.
But the vast majority of humans will never go to heaven but will be here on earth as God originally planned as the subjects of this KINGDOM.

Originally posted by sonship
See if a brief word you can understand.

In the millennial kingdom and in the new heaven and new earth there will be nations of people under the reign and rule of the sons of God.

To them they are unregenerated people who are restored back to the condition of Adam before the fall of man.

Actually, most of what the Jehovah's Witness teach sounds m ...[text shortened]... e for them to reign over and also to be the nations around to witness the glory of Israel.

This is a lot to look up and meditate on, but will give it a shot.
I have always believed that born again Christians will populate a restored earth. There is much in the Old Testament about the reapers and harvests, in other words an abundance of food, etc.
Then some will be rewarded as kings and priests, depending on our lives now, (how we live and serve the Lord).

Originally posted by galveston75
First the terms new heaven and new earth are symbolic. They are not physically destroyed and then re created. Why in reality would that have to happen?
If you look at the scriptures of the time that speaks of Jesus fighting with satan, it shows that of course Jesus wins and then cast satan and his demons down to earth.
So from that time on the spirit ...[text shortened]... literal because of the other things spoken of such as the great crowd that is uncountable.

Perhaps the 144,000 number could also be symbolic and not actually mean a literal 144,000? Perhaps it could be a much greater number. Could that be possible?

The Instructor

Originally posted by checkbaiter
This is a lot to look up and meditate on, but will give it a shot.
I have always believed that born again Christians will populate a restored earth. There is much in the Old Testament about the reapers and harvests, in other words an abundance of food, etc.
Then some will be rewarded as kings and priests, depending on our lives now, (how we live and serve the Lord).

Maybe you should put what I shared with you on the back burner. It may be a distraction or premature knowledge. I think at a certain time in my Christian life I would not have understood that.

I need to have more self control in speaking of some things which are probably harder to understand without ample ground work. What I passed to you was really brief and left a lot out.

Originally posted by sonship
Maybe you should put what I shared with you on the back burner. It may be a distraction or premature knowledge. I think at a certain time in my Christian life I would not have understood that.

I need to have more self control in speaking of some things which are probably harder to understand without ample ground work. What I passed to you was really brief and left a lot out.

I am not as interested in end times as many here are. I am more interested in walking by the spirit and putting off the flesh. I know God is good, and in the end he wins and so do I. That is all I need to know for the time being.
I am interested in seeing more people healed of sickness, poverty, depression, etc. I am more interested in seeing the power that I have in the spirit being released in the physical, and preaching the Good News.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I am not as interested in end times as many here are. I am more interested in walking by the spirit and putting off the flesh. I know God is good, and in the end he wins and so do I. That is all I need to know for the time being.
I am interested in seeing more people healed of sickness, poverty, depression, etc. I am more interested in seeing the power that I have in the spirit being released in the physical, and preaching the Good News.

I may start a thread on the Spirit which will be tailored to our interests in walking by the Spirit. If you think of this, you might pray for it too.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Perhaps the 144,000 number could also be symbolic and not actually mean a literal 144,000? Perhaps it could be a much greater number. Could that be possible?

The Instructor

the number is rather specific and unless of course you know how the Jewish temple arrangement with its priesthood was a type relating to the heavenly arrangement then it will not make sense. Its often the case with those who are stuck the Greek portion of scripture that the majority of what preceded them makes little sense.

Originally posted by galveston75
Is it possible for a person to have God’s spirit and yet not be “born again”?


Regarding John the baptizer, Jehovah’s angel said: “He will be filled with holy spirit right from his mother’s womb.” (Luke 1:15) And Jesus later said: “Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser o ...[text shortened]... d for him to be “born again,” because, as Acts 2:34 says: “David did not ascend to the heavens.”

The Spirit that facilitates the new birth "was not yet" until Jesus was resurrected. The Spirit of God only consisted of the divinity of God in the Old Testament and up to the Spirit operating in John the Baptist.

The Holy Spirit after the resurrection of Jesus contained not only the divinity of God but the humanity of the man Jesus. That Spirit was "not yet" until Jesus was glorified in resurrection.

"Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.

But this He said concerning the Spirit. whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for [the] Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified." (John 7:37-39)

The KJV inserts the word so that it reads "not yet [given]". But the original simply says that "Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified."

In resurrection the Spirit of God included the humanity of Jesus in addition to only the divinity of God. So First Corinthians 15:45 states that Christ became a life giving Spirit -

"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

This life giving Spirit is the eternal Spirit of Jehovah as the Third of the Triune God. But since Jesus was glorified in resurrection this eternal Spirit was compounded with the MAN - Jesus. He became a life giving Spirit.

So the OT was full of references to the Spirit of God. And John the Baptist labored by the power of the Spirit of God. But the impartation of the life of God into man at the new birth came with the resurrected Christ who "became a life giving Spirit".

This [divine life giving] Spirit was not yet until Jesus was glorified. Jesus was glorified in resurrection -

"Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and enter into His glory." (Luke 24:26)

The Holy Spirit compounded with the resurrected man Jesus was not yet until Jesus rose from the dead. And that is the "life giving Spirit" which carries out the New Testament new birth.

Originally posted by sonship
The Spirit that facilitates the new birth [b]"was not yet" until Jesus was resurrected. The Spirit of God only consisted of the divinity of God in the Old Testament and up to the Spirit operating in John the Baptist.

The Holy Spirit after the resurrection of Jesus contained not only the divinity of God but the humanity of the man Jesus. That Spirit w ...[text shortened]... the "life giving Spirit" which carries out the New Testament new birth.[/b]

Exactly, I think technically speaking, the New Covenant actually began in the book of Acts on the day of Pentecost. Jesus had instructed his Disciples to tarry in Jerusalem until the promise of the Father...
Then the disciples were the first to speak in tongues, etc...