Calling All Atheists

Originally posted by Suzianne
Those who blaspheme against God are still sinning against God, even if they do not believe in God or sin, and you will be called upon at Judgement to defend your decision to do so.

What is it any police officer will tell you? Oh, yeah, ignorance of the law is no excuse. And in this case, you're not even actually ignorant of it. You just choose to do so anyways.

The fairy's at the bottom of my garden require that ever second Thursday during months without an 'r' in them,
You spend 3 minutes at midday rubbing your stomach while patting your head whilst standing on one foot and
reciting "Jabberwocky" by lewis carol.

If you don't do this then when you die you will be locked up in the fairy dungeons for all eternity where you
will be slowly driven insane by a hairy goblin tickling you with a feather.



Once you understand why you shouldn't believe in and fear this, you should understand why I don't believe in
or fear your god/hell.

Originally posted by googlefudge
The fairy's at the bottom of my garden require that ever second Thursday during months without an 'r' in them,
You spend 3 minutes at midday rubbing your stomach while patting your head whilst standing on one foot and
reciting "Jabberwocky" by lewis carol.

If you don't do this then when you die you will be locked up in the fairy dungeons for all e ...[text shortened]... in and fear this, you should understand why I don't believe in
or fear your god/hell.

To me, this just seems sad.

Is there anyone you consider as an "authority figure"? Anyone at all?

And am I right in assuming that to you, the very concept of anything described as "divine" has no meaning?

Originally posted by Suzianne
To me, this just seems sad.

Is there anyone you consider as an "authority figure"? Anyone at all?

And am I right in assuming that to you, the very concept of anything described as "divine" has no meaning?

Depends what you mean as "authority figure"...

There are certainly authorities on certain topics, in that they have lots of knowledge and
expertise in those topics, and in general if they say something about those topics I will
have an expectation that its true.

however that expectation isn't absolute, and I would expect that if asked they could provide
the evidence to back up their claims. And that they have been asked by other experts and
have provided the said evidence (peer review at work).

If they can't provide the evidence then I don't care how expert they are, I wont, and shouldn't,
take them simply at their word.


If you mean some sort of 'ultimate' authority figure then no.

The 'ultimate' authority is simply the universe, reality, the territory.

The thing we try to map and that we test our maps against.



As for divine... The word has meaning to me, not necessarily the same meaning as you have in mind,
but it's not meaningless. Usually used in my case to describe food...

But given that I don't believe in any kind of god or deity then I correspondingly don't believe in things that
are 'of god' or 'of a deity'... I don't believe in divinity in that sense.

In much the same way that nobody who doesn't believe in a god or afterlife should fear hell...

I say should because some who become atheists after having being taught to fear hell all their lives keep the
fear of hell even after the belief in god has gone...
Which is sad, and why there are support groups for such people.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Depends what you mean as "authority figure"...

There are certainly authorities on certain topics, in that they have lots of knowledge and
expertise in those topics, and in general if they say something about those topics I will
have an expectation that its true.

however that expectation isn't absolute, and I would expect that if asked they coul ...[text shortened]... has gone...
Which is sad, and why there are support groups for such people.

Well, as far as an "authority figure" I was aiming at someone close to you. Like maybe your father? Or another relative or family acquaintance whom you were close to? I mean, I get that you fancy yourself as "in charge of your own destiny, the sole tillerman of the ship of your life", etc... did you ever have anyone in your life that you could look up to as an authority whom it was important to accept unwaveringly as an authority, either over you or perhaps others? (For me, I point unhesitatingly at my Dad, who is now no longer with me, except in memory and spirit).

Even if someone comes to atheism late in life, how can someone who is atheist have a fear of hell or of God? Doesn't fear require a belief that it may be real? Doesn't that mean they may not be a "full atheist"?

Originally posted by Suzianne
Well, as far as an "authority figure" I was aiming at someone close to you. Like maybe your father? Or another relative or family acquaintance whom you were close to? I mean, I get that you fancy yourself as "in charge of your own destiny, the sole tillerman of the ship of your life", etc... did you ever have anyone in your life that you could look up to ...[text shortened]... quire a belief that it may be real? Doesn't that mean they may not be a "full atheist"?

People who are afraid of the dark don't necessarily believe in monsters.
People can understand that flying is safer than driving but still be too afraid to fly while driving everywhere.

Fear is not always rational and can't just be turned off like a switch.

If you have spend your entire life being taught to fear something then it can be very hard to stop.
Even if you intellectually realise that the thing you fear doesn't exist.

You are an atheist if you don't presently have a belief in a god or gods.

Fearing hell or not isn't even a relevant question.



And of course when I was small I had people who told me what to do, and who I trusted. My parents being two of them.

And also you don't 'get me'... so please don't put words in my mouth.

However, I grew up, and part of that was realising that 'authority' can be wrong, and that I must make my own decision
and evaluate evidence myself and then own those decisions and their consequences.

I don't believe that responsibility can ever be abdicated by saying "I was ordered/told/instructed to do something by an authority".
If I do, or do not do, something then I am responsible for that.
If there is information I need to make that decision it's my responsibility to make sure I get it and check it.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Depends what you mean as "authority figure"...

There are certainly authorities on certain topics, in that they have lots of knowledge and
expertise in those topics, and in general if they say something about those topics I will
have an expectation that its true.

however that expectation isn't absolute, and I would expect that if asked they coul ...[text shortened]... has gone...
Which is sad, and why there are support groups for such people.

Your authority figures seem to be the evil-lution scientists.

“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,
And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
For by me your days will be multiplied,
And years of life will be added to you.
If you are wise, you are wise for yourself,
And if you scoff, you will bear it alone.”

Proverbs 9:10-12 NKJV)

You give me the creeps. You are a poor ambassador for your religion.

Originally posted by googlefudge
And also you don't 'get me'... so please don't put words in my mouth.

All I can "get you" by is what you present in this forum. You have always presented yourself as how I described. I do not think my description is that far off.

Saying all that, I do wish there was another punctuation mark other than quotation marks I could use to make my point. I did not include my description in quotes because it was something you said, I was not quoting *you*. I do refrain from "putting words in one's mouth". The quotes around my description of how I see you are like "air quotes" signifying that the concomitant idea is not really mine, but perhaps a quote out of "the collective unconscious" as Jung would put it. I wish there was a way to tell the difference in print.

I'm sorry if I offended you. I did not mean to.

Originally posted by googlefudge
However, I grew up, and part of that was realising that 'authority' can be wrong, and that I must make my own decision
and evaluate evidence myself and then own those decisions and their consequences.

Forgive my questions about what your idea of "authority" is based on. Frankly, it's none of my business.

I don't believe that responsibility can ever be abdicated by saying "I was ordered/told/instructed to do something by an authority".
If I do, or do not do, something then I am responsible for that.
If there is information I need to make that decision it's my responsibility to make sure I get it and check it.

And yet you say there is no such thing as Free Will. Your words show you do not really believe that.

I believe these same things about responsibility. That wasn't where I was going with my "authority" questions. Never mind. Forget that I brought it up.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Forgive my questions about what your idea of "authority" is based on. Frankly, it's none of my business.
[quote]I don't believe that responsibility can ever be abdicated by saying "I was ordered/told/instructed to do something by an authority".
If I do, or do not do, something then I am responsible for that.
If there is information I need to make that d ...[text shortened]... I was going with my "authority" questions. Never mind. Forget that I brought it up.

Free will doesn't exist.

It can't, The laws of physics do not permit it. Period.

That said... I feel like I have free will, and I act like I have free will,
and have no choice but to feel like I have free will and act like I have free will.

So the fact that free will is an illusion is irrelevant to everyday life.
And certainly moral decisions must be made as if free will does exist.


It's a bit like saying we could be simulations in the matrix... well ok fine but that makes
precisely no difference to how I think or lead my life until you show me how to reprogram
the matrix or leave it.




Where were you going with your authority questions?

Originally posted by Suzianne
All I can "get you" by is what you present in this forum. You have always presented yourself as how I described. I do not think my description is that far off.

Saying all that, I do wish there was another punctuation mark other than quotation marks I could use to make my point. I did not include my description in quotes because it was something you sa ...[text shortened]... y to tell the difference in print.

I'm sorry if I offended you. I did not mean to.

Don't be sorry. Be glad, like me. 😏

Originally posted by googlefudge
Free will doesn't exist.

It can't, The laws of physics do not permit it. Period.

That said... I feel like I have free will, and I act like I have free will,
and have no choice but to feel like I have free will and act like I have free will.

So the fact that free will is an illusion is irrelevant to everyday life.
And certainly moral decisions ...[text shortened]... rogram
the matrix or leave it.




Where were you going with your authority questions?

Free will may not exist for you, but it does for me. Oh Happy Day!

YouTube

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Originally posted by RJHinds
Free will may not exist for you, but it does for me. Oh Happy Day!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPcEpnDRKNo

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!

You have about as much free will as a mouse in an exercise wheel. It is your mind that is trapped inside your dogma, your cognitive dissonance refuses to let you use the full extent of your mind. There is no free will anywhere in your body or mind. You are trapped inside a 2000 year old lie.

Originally posted by sonhouse
You have about as much free will as a mouse in an exercise wheel. It is your mind that is trapped inside your dogma, your cognitive dissonance refuses to let you use the full extent of your mind. There is no free will anywhere in your body or mind. You are trapped inside a 2000 year old lie.

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

(John 8:31-32 NKJV)

Originally posted by RJHinds
[b]Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

(John 8:31-32 NKJV)[/b]

They have a test on "The Atheist Experience" show that they call the "Captain Kirk Test".

It basically says that if you have captain Kirk say saying the words rather than the bible
is it just as convincing?

Then Captain Kirk said to those Crew who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

It's basically a way of pointing out that because some one says something that does not make it true.
The bible is not evidence for the events in it actually happening.

The bible is not evidence of god, the supernatural, or afterlives.


Quoting the bible at me/us is about as effective as quoting captain Kirk.

If it does happen to be true it's true because of it's own merits rather than because of who says it.