Originally posted by checkbaiterLOL ... Ive seen this before .. Selective punctuation adjustment...Of all the places in the Bible where Jesus speaks like that, it is only in this one you want to fix the punctuation. Here are some more .. You need to fix any more? 😀
Jesus could not have meant that "Today" you would be with with me in Paradise.
Jesus was in the grave 3 days and three nights, not in Paradise.
The verse is properly read as follows....
I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise. The punctuation is important.
Luk_23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Joh_8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh_8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Joh_8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh_10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Joh_10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Joh_12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Joh_13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
Joh_13:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Joh_13:21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
Joh_13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.
Joh_14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Joh_16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
Joh_16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Joh_21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
I guess thats the only one huh ...
Oh .. here is one
Verily, verily, I say unto thee The cock, shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.
LOL Do you really want people to take you and your website religion seriously?
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04 Jul 16
Originally posted by Rajk999Well, let's see... So you don't think Jesus was dead three days and three nights? He was in Paradise with the thief on the cross?
LOL ... Ive seen this before .. Selective punctuation adjustment...Of all the places in the Bible where Jesus speaks like that, it is only in this one you want to fix the punctuation. Here are some more .. You need to fix any more? 😀
[i]Luk_23:43 And Jesus said unto him, [b]Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.
J ...[text shortened]... thrice. [/b]
LOL Do you really want people to take you and your website religion seriously?[/b]
Originally posted by checkbaiterWell lets see .. first, selectively shifting around commas is an underhand way to interpret the Bible.
Well, let's see... So you don't think Jesus was dead three days and three nights? He was in Paradise with the thief on the cross?
Second, I do not claim to understand all the intricacies of death and the after-life. Anyone or any religion that does is a damn fool. None of the Apostles claimed to understand either, as they were not privy to that information.
Next I have the happy privilege of ignoring church dogma [of all types] since I am connected to none, so I dont feel obligated to push their doctrine... like you and sonship do.
FInally I take what Jesus says at face value and dont add or subtract from it. Like this one:
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28 KJV)
This to me says in no uncertain terms that body and soul are two separate and independent aspects to every human. Man can kill the body and only God can destroy the soul if/when God is ready to do that. Regardless what the rest of the Bible says about body and soul, I take Jesus's doctrine first.... and everything else must fit into what Jesus Christ .. the way, the truth and the light, says.
This little fact can help answer your question. Jesus's physical body was in the grave for 3 days and his soul went with the thief on the cross to paradise/or wherever else.
Peter also said something interesting:
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1 Peter 3:18-20 KJV)
Seems that Christ [dead in the flesh but alive in the Spirit], went to preach to disobedient souls in prison/hell, when he died.
The Afterlife is a complicated matter. I am making no claims to understand it. I just can see when some people swallow church dogma so easily that all reason and commonsense is ignored just so that they can fit into the church ... its sad.
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04 Jul 16
Originally posted by Rajk999Glad you have the answers....Peace🙂
Well lets see .. first, selectively shifting around commas is an underhand way to interpret the Bible.
Second, I do not claim to understand all the intricacies of death and the after-life. Anyone or any religion that does is a damn fool. None of the Apostles claimed to understand either, as they were not privy to that information.
Next I have the happ ...[text shortened]... hat all reason and commonsense is ignored just so that they can fit into the church ... its sad.
Here is something that seems to contradict what you say:
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. (Matthew 27:51-53 KJV)
Maybe not everybody is waiting in the graves for Christ to return. Maybe the thief on the cross and many of the saints are there in paradise as we speak.
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04 Jul 16
Originally posted by Rajk999Verses 52 and 53 may have been added...
Here is something that seems to contradict what you say:
[i]And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared ...[text shortened]... o return. Maybe the thief on the cross and many of the saints are there in paradise as we speak.
Some theologians point out that these “holy ones” did not enter Jerusalem until after the resurrection, but that really misses the point. If someone was raised from the dead with a glorified and everlasting body before Jesus was, then that person would have been the “firstfruits from the dead,” and not Jesus.
http://www.truthortradition.com/articles/what-about-matthew-27:52-and-53
04 Jul 16
Originally posted by checkbaiterWell nobody is arguing that. The passage states clearly that these saints came out of the graves after Christ was resurrected. So Jesus is the firstfruits. What kind of body they had and where they went is not known to anyone.
Verses 52 and 53 may have been added...
Some theologians point out that these “holy ones” did not enter Jerusalem until after the resurrection, but that really misses the point. If someone was raised from the dead with a glorified and everlasting body before Jesus was, then that person would have been the “firstfruits from the dead,” and not Jesus.
http://www.truthortradition.com/articles/what-about-matthew-27:52-and-53
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04 Jul 16
Originally posted by checkbaiter
Paul is human, with emotions, but his first choice is to please God, serve the church at any cost. He did not count his life dear to him.
Paul today is dead and awaiting the return of Christ.
So between the two choices (not three) he prefers to continue alive so he can come to them furthering their progress and joy in the faith.
Actually, this too is to gain more of Christ personally (Phil. 3:7-11)
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Originally posted by checkbaiter
Jesus could not have meant that "Today" you would be with with me in Paradise.
Why not ? That is what He SAID.
Jesus was in the grave 3 days and three nights, not in Paradise.
I didn't say Paradise was Heaven. So if Paradise is the pleasant section of Hades under the earth there is no problem with Him saying He and the thief would go there "today". Nor is there any contradiction that He was in the heart of the earth for three days.
The verse is properly read as follows....
I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise. The punctuation is important.
I would judge these as rather desperate measures to maintain a certain belief.
Do you seriously Jesus needed to specify that He was speaking "Today" as opposed to "Yesterday" or "Tomorrow" or "Next week" ?
I have never had any doubt that the meaning is that on that day of their DEATH - they will be together in Paradise. And Jesus being three days in Hades carries no contradiction to that.
Hades has its pleasant section and its unpleasant section. The believing thief's immaterial being accompanied Jesus' immaterial being into the pleasant section of Hades - Paradise. It is also called "Abraham's bosom" in Luke 16:22,23
This pleasant section of Hades is also no doubt the place where the immaterial part of the prophet Samuel was resting. And he was accompanied by angels up from the earth. So Paradise or Abraham's bosom is a resting place for the saints of God.
The rich man in Luke 16:19-31 went to Hades also. But the section he went to was a place of torment. And if it is not true then you still have to explain why Jesus would be unethical to give a false impression of something that is impossible to occur.
I don't think you have done that yet. So far I see you simply dismissing the Luke 16 account as something you know more about than Jesus. Of course I take Him to know what He is talking about.
Jesus is and was a MAN. If a MAN does not exist after physical death in any sense then He could not have proclaimed anything to the spirits imprisoned in the realm of death.
" For Christ also has suffered once for sins, the Righeous on behalf of the unrighteous, that He might bring you to God,
on the one hand being put to death in the flesh, but on the other, made alive in the Spirit;
In which also He went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, who had formerly disobeyed when the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah ..." (See 1 Pet. 3:18,19)
Death and Hades is portrayed as a place of utter weakness to deceased human beings. In contrast when Christ died He went into the realm of death full of power. The evil angels from the days of Noah were particularly confined to some region of death.
The weakness of those dead in Sheol (Hades):
" Sheol beneath is excited because of you, That it will meet you when you come. It rouses the dead because of you, All the great ones of the earth. It makes all the kings of the nations rise from their thrones.
All of them will respond and say to you, Even you have been weakened, just as we have; You have become like us. " (Isaiah 14:9,10)
For departed humans and any other beings confined in that realm WEAKNESS and confinement is the norm. Christ, in contrast, when He died, moved about with power freely as He willed.
When Jesus died He went to that region full of power and the Holy Spirit and announced His victory over all their schemes to corrupt the human race.
During the three days in which Jesus was dead, He also crossed over any barriers in Hades which men are not able to cross over (Luke 16:24,25) .
" ... Lazarus ... now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.
and besides all these things, between us and you a great chasm is fixed, so those wanting to pass from here to you cannot, neither from there to us may any cross over." (See Luke 16:24,25)
Jesus Christ the Son of God was an exception. He went into Hades full of power and freedom to move about in that realm. He crossed over whatever boundaries there may be and visited the rebellious angelic spirits who attempted to corrupt the human race in the days of Noah.
He proclaimed His utter victory over them and their leader Satan.
These are some of the things Christ did during those three days in addition to being with the believing thief in Paradise.
He came out of Hades with the keys which he confiscated in His power.
" ... I am the First and the Last and the living One, and I became dead and behold, I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys to death and of Hades." (Rev. 1:17b,18)
Christ as not non-existent during those three days. He was active in Hades and very powerful. And if you argue that in some way the spirit returned to God, there is no contradiction. For Jesus said before He expired that into the Father's hands He committed His spirit.
It was the Father's will that His spirit which was committed to His divine hands would do these mighty things in Hades. All was according to the immaterial part of Jesus being in the Father's hands as if to "return" to God.
" And crying with a loud voice, Jesus said, Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit. And saying this, He expired." (Luke 23:46)
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05 Jul 16
Originally posted by sonshipSo if Paradise is the pleasant section of Hades under the earth there is no problem with Him saying He and the thief would go there "today". Nor is there any contradiction that He was in the heart of the earth for three days.Jesus could not have meant that "Today" you would be with with me in Paradise.
Why not ? That is what He SAID.
Jesus was in the grave 3 days and three nights, not in Paradise.
I didn't say Paradise was Heaven. So if Paradise is the pleasant section of Hades under the earth there is no problem with Him say ...[text shortened]... er, into Your hands I commit My spirit. And saying this, He expired." (Luke 23:46) [/quote][/b]
Huh? A pleasant place in Hades?
Where do you get this from?
Anyway, I think you are as stubborn as I am...We are getting nowhere....
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05 Jul 16
Originally posted by checkbaiter"O Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus".
[b] So if Paradise is the pleasant section of Hades under the earth there is no problem with Him saying He and the thief would go there "today". Nor is there any contradiction that He was in the heart of the earth for three days.
Huh? A pleasant place in Hades?
Where do you get this from?
Anyway, I think you are as stubborn as I am...We are getting nowhere....[/b]
For the rest of this night, let's just call upon the name of the Lord.
"O Lord JESUS! Lord Jesus!"
It is good that you disagree with me a little. Then I can call on the Lord Jesus and gain more Christ for His soon coming. Amen.
Good night.
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05 Jul 16
The book The Economy of God by Witness Lee and the three volume set called The Spiritual Man by Watchman Nee are very good in explaining the parts of man.
Here you may see the chapter headings in Lee's book The Economy of God
The Economy of the Triune God
The All-sufficient Spirit
The Residence of the Divine Spirit
The Key to the Indwelling Spirit
The Persons of God and the Parts of Man
The Inward and the Hidden Parts
The Function of the Inward and the Hidden Parts
Dealing with the Heart and the Spirit
Dealing with the Soul
The Digging of Our Inward and Hidden Parts
Discerning the Spirit from the Soul
Man and the Two Trees
The Cross and the Soul-life
The Principle of the Cross
The Principle of Resurrection
The Riches of Resurrection
The Fellowship of Life and the Sense of Life
The Exercise of and Entrance into the Spirit
The Hidden Christ in Our Spirit
The Tripartite Man and the Church
The Building of God’s Dwelling Place
The Covering of God’s Building
The Church—God Manifested in the Flesh
The Vision of the Mark of God’s Economy
And here is the link - http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=0C00C5
The book The Spiritual Man by Watchman Nee was the earlier book. And it owes much of teachings to the research of by Mrs. Jessie Penn Lewis. Mrs. Penn Lewis went through the entire Bible and left us a clear explanation of the biblical terms -
spirit
soul
body
and heart.
Both Nee and Lee cover the same matters in their two works, ie. what are the functions of the spirit and the functions of the soul and what is the heart.
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05 Jul 16
2 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiter
So you don't think Jesus was dead three days and three nights? He was in Paradise with the thief on the cross?
Death is better defined as separation rather than annihilation.
For three days Christ like all men who die was separated from His physical body.
Often when this is brought up it is objected that a Greek philosophy of the immortality of the soul being taught. To this I would say there is no explicit doctrine of the immortality of the soul per se in the Bible. But while a Greek like philosophy is not explicitly outlined in a systematic way passages reveal death as a separation than non-existence.
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09 Jul 16
5 edits
Back to opening the MOUTH to CALL on the mane of the Lord. How valuable this is.
When I rise in the morning it is so good to quietly call on the name of Jesus to bring my mind to the spirit.
"O Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus" first thing upon wakening up.
We see David calling "O Lord" or "O Jehovah" many many times in the Bible.
Second Samuel 1
1:18 - "O Lord Jehovah" - David
7:19 "O Lord Jehovah" again twice.
7:20 "O Lord Jehovah" - David again
7:22 "O Jehovah God" - David
7:25 "O Jehovah God" - David again
7:28 "O Lord Jehovah" - etc.
7:29 "O Lord Jehovah" - etc.
22:4 " I will call upon Jehovah" - David
22:7
"In my distress I called upon Jehovah: Yea, I called upon my God: And he heard my voice out of his temple, And my cry came into His ears." - David
So we have plenty of biblical ground to cry out - "O Lord Jesus".
We Christians have plenty of ground to whisper - "O Lord JESUS !"
We have good basis to call out loudly too - "O Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus!"
Amen.