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Originally posted by checkbaiterI saw that video. I was going to recommend it. It has some very good things in it.
From Satanist to Christian
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6l7A4cQHxuY
For certain reasons I changed my mind and withdrew the link.
If you wish to know why I changed my mind, I will discuss it. Otherwise I think 90% of that man's testimony is very good and informative.
When people talk about things like dreams I am careful to see if their dreams concur with or somewhat vary against what we are taught in the Bible.
I have a problem with people claiming in a dream to have gone into Hell and seen the Devil in Hell, as if the Devil is some kind of superintendent in that realm comfortably placed in his establishment.
But most of the man's testimony I think is informative.
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02 Jul 16
Originally posted by sonshipI think dream or vision does not mean Hell exists today. Nor is it a place of eternal torment.
I saw that video. I was going to recommend it. It has some very good things in it.
For certain reasons I changed my mind and withdrew the link.
If you wish to know why I changed my mind, I will discuss it. Otherwise I think [b]90% of that man's testimony is very good and informative.
When people talk about things like dreams I am careful to se ...[text shortened]... ortably placed in his establishment.
But most of the man's testimony I think is informative.[/b]
But we have been over this before.
I also do not believe dead Christians are immediately in the presence of the Lord nor unbelievers in hell. They are dead and remain so, until the Lord returns.
02 Jul 16
Originally posted by checkbaiter“But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.”
I think dream or vision does not mean Hell exists today. Nor is it a place of eternal torment.
But we have been over this before.
I also do not believe dead Christians are immediately in the presence of the Lord nor unbelievers in hell. They are dead and remain so, until the Lord returns.
(1 Thessalonians 4:13-14).
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02 Jul 16
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeExactly, when the Lord returns.
“But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.”
(1 Thessalonians 4:13-14).
Read this in context....
Now, we do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who are asleep, in order that you will not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised, in the same way, through Jesus, God will bring from the grave those who have fallen asleep in him. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of a ruling-angel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds, for a meeting with the Lord in the air, and in this manner we will always be with the Lord. 18So then, encourage one another with these words. REV
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03 Jul 16
5 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiterI also do not believe dead Christians are immediately in the presence of the Lord nor unbelievers in hell. They are dead and remain so, until the Lord returns.
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They are more in the presence of the Lord then when physically alive. But they are not ideally in His presence as God intends them to be as when they receive their resurrected and glorified bodies.
Paul, said to depart "be absent from the body" (die; fall asleep) was to be "at home with the Lord" .
"Therefore being always of good courage and knowing that while we are at home in the body, we are abroad from the Lord... We are of good courage then and are well pleased rather to be abroad from the body and be at home with the Lord." (See 2 Cor. 5:6,8)
Physically alive = at home in the body and abroad from the Lord.
Physically dead = abroad from the body and at home with the Lord.
Based on this i know that in physical death the believers, in a relative sense [edited], is more WITH the Lord Jesus. So there must not be an interval of non-existence while the Christians is asleep, abroad from the body, deceased, and dead. He or she will be comparatively more with the Lord.
The exact same matter is confirmed in Philippians where Paul says that for him to depart in physical death is to "be with Christ."
" But I am constrained between the two, having the desire to depart [die; fall asleep] and be with Christ, for this is far better." (Phil. 1:23)
Paul had two options:
1.) Remain physically alive, with Christ in his spirit, assisting the living Christians.
2.) Dying physically to be comparatively more (and in some better sense) "with Christ". This has to mean abroad from his body and at home with the Lord Jesus.
He chooses to remain physically alive for the sake of God's work for the church.
"And being confident of this, I know that I will remain [alive] and continue with you all for your progress and joy of the faith." (v.25)
An important caveat:
Though for Paul to be abroad from his body, is to be comparatively more with Christ and at home with the Lord, it is not the being with the Lord that God ultimately desires. He will be physically dead which is described as being "unclothed" or found "naked". This is not God's first choice. Rather he desires man be "clothed upon" with a resurrected, glorified and transfigured body.
" If indeed, being clothed, we will not be found naked.
For also, we who are in this tabernacle [body] groan, being burdened, in that we do not desire to be unclothed, but clothed upon. that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life." (2 Cor. 5;3,4)
1.) For the Christian - physical death is to be naked.
2.) For the Christian - physical death is to be unclothed.
3.) For the Christian - physical death is to be abroad from the body.
4.) For the Christian - physical death is to be at home with the Lord.
5.) For the Christian - physical death is to with Christ
6.) For the Christian - physical death in some relative sense is to be "far better" in terms of being with Christ.
7.) For the Christian - the ideal state is to be resurrected, glorified, transfigured with a new body in which mortality is swallowed up by divine life.
Finally, the prophet Samuel was asleep in physical death but was resting and not non-existent. See First Samuel 28:3-25.
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03 Jul 16
Originally posted by sonshipI disagree with your wording but I am on my phone right now.
[b] I also do not believe dead Christians are immediately in the presence of the Lord nor unbelievers in hell. They are dead and remain so, until the Lord returns.
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They are more in the presence of the Lord then when physically alive. But they ar ...[text shortened]... asleep in physical death but was resting and not non-existent. See First Samuel 28:3-25.[/b]
Dead people have no consciousness , they have no thoughts, no pain, no desires. They know nothing. This goes for all people, Christian or not.
They are awakened at the rapture and the rest at the Ressurection .
Death is called an enemy not a friend.
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03 Jul 16
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Originally posted by checkbaiterDead people have no consciousness , they have no thoughts, no pain, no desires. They know nothing. This goes for all people, Christian or not.
Death is called an enemy not a friend.[/b]
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We are of good courage then and are well pleased rather to be abroad from the body and be at home with the Lord." (See 2 Cor. 5:6,8)
So then for Paul to be abroad from the body and at home with the Lord means to be non-existent ?
" But I am constrained between the two, having the desire to depart [die; fall asleep] and be with Christ, for this is far better." (Phil. 1:23)
So Paul thought it was far better to be non-existent then to be physically alive with the Philippians ?
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03 Jul 16
Originally posted by sonshipThis is articulated very well for me and what I believe is truth, and what the bible says, not church tradition.
[b] Dead people have no consciousness , they have no thoughts, no pain, no desires. They know nothing. This goes for all people, Christian or not.
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[quote] We are of good courage then and are well pleased rather to be abroad from the bod ...[text shortened]... t it was [b]far better to be non-existent then to be physically alive with the Philippians ?[/b]
“of good courage.” The Greek is tharrheō (#2292 θαρρέω, and in this context it refers to being of good courage, being confident, drawing courage from what we know to be truth. It is important to notice that Paul has repeated “of good courage” twice in the sentence, which starts in verse six and ends in verse eight. When it comes to what happens when we die, we must have confidence in what God says and courage to face our mortality and the situations that confront us in life, because we cannot know about spiritual truths about life after death from the world around us. Paul is especially confident because he rightly points out that God has given us the gift of holy spirit as a guarantee of our wonderful future life. The gift of holy spirit is born inside us (1 Pet. 1:23), and sealed inside (Eph. 1:13), and can be outwardly manifested, proving that we do indeed have it. [For more on the gift of holy spirit and how it can be manifested in the senses world
“Now I am hard pressed from the two directions.” The two directions Paul could go are clearly articulated in Phil 1:21: living or dying. If we are going to properly understand Philippians 1:23 it is very important that we see that Paul was “hard pressed” between those two possibilities, and there was a third possibility that was “better by far.” The reason Paul was torn between living and dying was that either one would benefit the church. He knew the church would benefit if he continued to live because he would be able to teach and support the believers. However, he also knew the church had benefited from his imprisonment (Phil 1:12), and it would also benefit from his death because believers would be emboldened to take a firm stand on the Good News about Christ (as it turned out, Paul’s execution was likely only 5 years after his writing Philippians, but we do not have any information on how the Philippians did after his death).
Paul was genuinely wondering which would be better for the church: his life, or his death. He wrote, “I feel torn between the two” (NET). The last part of the verse, that Paul wanted something that was better by far, fits together with his being torn about living or dying, but the traditional orthodox explanation of the last part of the verse ignores what Paul has just said and teaches that Paul has an intense desire for his death so he could be with Christ.
That traditional explanation makes no sense. If Paul had an intense desire to die so he could be with Christ, then he would not have been “torn” between living and dying. After all, he had just written that both living or dying would benefit the Church—and that was the very reason he was torn between them. If Paul knew that his death would benefit both the Church and himself too, then there was nothing for him to be “hard pressed,” or “torn” about. To properly understand the verse we need to see that the last phrase in the verse is introducing a third option that is much better than either living or dying: the return of Christ.
The reason most Christians overlook the contradiction that their interpretation forces upon Philippians 1:23 is that they believe the Bible teaches that when a saved person dies he immediately goes to heaven, and they think the verse is saying Paul wants to die and go be with the Lord. But the Bible does not teach that people go to heaven (or Gehenna) when they die, it teaches that people are genuinely dead, without life, and are awaiting the resurrection. [For more information on the dead being actually dead, lifeless, until the resurrection, see Appendix 4, “The Dead Are Dead”].
This explains why the choice between living and dying was so difficult for Paul. If death brings us immediately into the presence of God and Christ, and either living or dying would benefit the Church, then Paul had an easy decision: die. Then the Church would benefit and he would be with Christ. The reason Paul was torn between life and death was that there was no benefit to him in being dead, lifeless, even though the Church would benefit.
03 Jul 16
Originally posted by checkbaiterHow exactly would the church benefit from the death of Paul?
This is articulated very well for me and what I believe is truth, and what the bible says, not church tradition.
[b]“of good courage.” The Greek is tharrheō (#2292 θαρρέω, and in this context it refers to being of good courage, being confident, drawing courage from what we know to be truth. It is important to notice that Paul has repeated “of good c ...[text shortened]... ere was no benefit to him in being dead, lifeless, even though the Church would benefit.[/quote]
03 Jul 16
Originally posted by checkbaiterI read your explanation and I read the passage and it is clear that Paul is saying two things :
Read it again...
- that it is better for them that he lives.
- that it is better for him that he dies and be with Christ
Paul does not have a choice when he dies unless he is considering suicide. Paul is aware that his death is in the hands of God.
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03 Jul 16
Originally posted by Rajk999The church was emboldened...during his incarceration and would at his death
I read your explanation and I read the passage and it is clear that Paul is saying two things :
- that it is better for them that he lives.
- that it is better for him that he dies and be with Christ
Paul does not have a choice when he dies unless he is considering suicide. Paul is aware that his death is in the hands of God.