1. Standard memberKellyJay
    Walk your Faith
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    26 May '07 17:31
    Blakbuzzrd
    “What about someone like me who no longer believes? Do I still get grace? Is the unchangeable God's grace unwavering, or does it come and go depending on human belief?

    I refer you to 2 Timothy 2:13: "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." Also worth considering is Numbers 23:19: "God is not a man that he should lie, nor a son of man that he should change his mind."

    So how about it? Do I get to sit here and smugly pick apart your arguments, profess agnosticism, and then have a laugh about it in eternity? Or does the book of life come with a big ass eraser?”

    So you left that faith did you, what did you leave? Did you actually
    have a relationship with God through Jesus Christ, or did you go
    through the motions and later decided the games you saw being
    played around you was not real? I was under the impression you
    wanted to discuss this, so I’m assuming you just forgot about this
    or have not had time to get back to it.
    Kelly
  2. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
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    26 May '07 17:43
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    [b]Blakbuzzrd
    “What about someone like me who no longer believes? Do I still get grace? Is the unchangeable God's grace unwavering, or does it come and go depending on human belief?

    I refer you to 2 Timothy 2:13: "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." Also worth considering is Numbers 23:19: "God is not a man that h ...[text shortened]... so I’m assuming you just forgot about this
    or have not had time to get back to it.
    Kelly[/b]
    Bummer. Another person actually using his own mind and overcoming the insidious brainwashing of your precious christianity.
  3. Standard memberKellyJay
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    26 May '07 18:291 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Bummer. Another person actually using his own mind and overcoming the insidious brainwashing of your precious christianity.
    I agree with you, if all s/he had was 'brainwashing' than s/he left the
    brainwashing; however, if s/he left a real relationship with Jesus Christ
    and God, than s/he left Christianity. Only s/he knows the answer to
    that question.
    Kelly
  4. The sky
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    26 May '07 18:38
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I agree with you, if all s/he had was 'brainwashing' than s/he left the
    brainwashing; however, if s/he left a real relationship with Jesus Christ
    and God, than s/he left Christianity. Only s/he knows the answer to
    that question.
    Kelly
    I can't answer for blakbuzzrd, but when I was a believer, obviously I believed that it was real, and once I left that faith, obviously I stopped believing it had been real. If I hadn't believed it was real, I wouldn't have been a believer, and if I hadn't stopped to believe it was real, I would still be a believer. I can't imagine anyone who has lost xyr faith would say that xe ever had a real relationship with God - how can you believe that if you don't believe in God? So I don't really understand your question.
  5. Illinois
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    26 May '07 18:421 edit
    Originally posted by blakbuzzrd
    What about someone like me who no longer believes? Do I still get grace? Is the unchangeable God's grace unwavering, or does it come and go depending on human belief?
    What about someone like me who no longer believes? Do I still get grace? Is the unchangeable God's grace unwavering, or does it come and go depending on human belief?

    I refer you to 2 Timothy 2:13: "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." Also worth considering is Numbers 23:19: "God is not a man that he should lie, nor a son of man that he should change his mind."

    So how about it? Do I get to sit here and smugly pick apart your arguments, profess agnosticism, and then have a laugh about it in eternity? Or does the book of life come with a big ass eraser?”


    "But some of these branches from Abraham’s tree—some of the people of Israel—have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, have been grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in the rich nourishment from the root of God’s special olive tree. But you must not brag about being grafted in to replace the branches that were broken off. You are just a branch, not the root.

    “Well,” you may say, “those branches were broken off to make room for me.” Yes, but remember—those branches were broken off because they didn’t believe in Christ, and you are there because you do believe. So don’t think highly of yourself, but fear what could happen. For if God did not spare the original branches, he won’t spare you either.

    Notice how God is both kind and severe. He is severe toward those who disobeyed, but kind to you if you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting, you also will be cut off. And if the people of Israel turn from their unbelief, they will be grafted in again, for God has the power to graft them back into the tree" (Romans 11:17-22).
  6. Joined
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    26 May '07 18:522 edits
    I am so glad that the disciple Peter is in the Bible. He even seems to be the leader among the twelve apostles. As so he is kind of a representative of all those to follow Jesus in coming generations.

    As a prime example and leader of disciples we are told that he denied the Lord Jesus three times. The third time before a little maiden who couldn't hurt anyone. Wow! And he did so with cursing.

    If the leading disciple once denied his Lord why should we be shocked if down through the ages some others maintain to have "been there - done that"?

    I don't get bothered by the "been there - done that" crowd who say they once believed but now, they no longer do.

    myself spent about 8 years in total amnesia as to my intimate relationship with Jesus my Savior. So I know it is possible to go through a long dark tunnel of backsliddeness.

    Only God knows for sure who was really regenerated. We can expect many who say "Been there - done that" simply to be "cultural" Christians who were never born anew in their spirit.

    And as for the others who really were regenerated and born of God, sure the Apostle Paul says that some make "shipwreck" of their faith by thrusting away the conscience.

    I don't think that once a person is born of a father she or he can be unborn of that father. They may not be on speaking terms for awhile. Many a child becomes estranged from their parents. But they are still the children of those parents. They cannot be unborn of those parents.

    But if the leading disciple Peter once denied the Lord with bitter curses, why should not others through the centries also shout "I tell you I do NOT know the Man !!"

    We've been forwarned already of the possiblity.
  7. Standard memberKellyJay
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    26 May '07 18:561 edit
    Originally posted by Nordlys
    I can't answer for blakbuzzrd, but when I was a believer, obviously I believed that it was real, and once I left that faith, obviously I stopped believing it had been real. If I hadn't believed it was real, I wouldn't have been a believer, and if I hadn't stopped to believe it was real, I would still be a believer. I can't imagine anyone who has lost xyr fai ...[text shortened]... you believe that if you don't believe in God? So I don't really understand your question.
    So what you left wasn't real, that is what I'm asking, you left
    something that was either real or not, if it was not real as you now
    say what did you leave?
    Kelly
  8. The sky
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    26 May '07 19:35
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    So what you left wasn't real, that is what I'm asking, you left
    something that was either real or not, if it was not real as you now
    say what did you leave?
    Kelly
    I didn't say what I left wasn't real, I said I believe it wasn't real, but I believed it was real when I was a believer. Anyone who was once a believer, but isn't anymore, will obviously believe it wasn't real because otherwise they would still be believers. That's what makes the question whether it was real or not meaningless. Nobody can know for sure, even though I think it's extremely unlikely that it was real. To the other part of your question - what did I leave if it wasn't real - I'd say it was a feeling, an idea and a belief without a basis in reality, caused by psychological mechanisms.
  9. Standard memberKellyJay
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    26 May '07 20:551 edit
    Originally posted by Nordlys
    I didn't say what I left wasn't real, I said I believe it wasn't real, but I believed it was real when I was a believer. Anyone who was once a believer, but isn't anymore, will obviously believe it wasn't real because otherwise they would still be believers. That's what makes the question whether it was real or not meaningless. Nobody ca g, an idea and a belief without a basis in reality, caused by psychological mechanisms.
    You left a feeling, an idea, whatever it was you left had no basis
    in reality, is that accurate? I get you believed, but what was real
    about it, nothing?
    Kelly
  10. The sky
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    26 May '07 22:17
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    You left a feeling, an idea, whatever it was you left had no basis
    in reality, is that accurate? I get you believed, but what was real
    about it, nothing?
    Kelly
    I am repeating myself, but it appears you still didn't quite understand what I meant. I don't know whether what I left had no basis in reality or not, although I believe it didn't. There's a slight possibility that it had some basis in reality. I don't exclude the possibility that there is some form of God or divinity which may be perceptible in some way. I find it extremely unlikely that it was based entirely on reality, i.e. that the Christian God exists.
  11. Standard memberKellyJay
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    27 May '07 01:52
    Originally posted by Nordlys
    I am repeating myself, but it appears you still didn't quite understand what I meant. I don't know whether what I left had no basis in reality or not, although I believe it didn't. There's a slight possibility that it had some basis in reality. I don't exclude the possibility that there is some form of God or divinity which may be percep ...[text shortened]... ely[/i] unlikely that it was based entirely on reality, i.e. that the Christian God exists.
    I'd say we can confirm at least what you had wasn't real in that you
    would have least known the difference between having relationship
    with Jesus Christ and not having one, can we agree on that? If we
    can agree on that I'd say what you left wasn't Christ, but something
    else completely.
    Kelly
  12. Standard memberblakbuzzrd
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    27 May '07 21:41
    I have arrived. I have a thread calling me out by name now!

    Now to bidness:

    An evangelical xian maintains that if someone actually falls away from the faith, then that person wasn't really of the faith, since Christ promises to protect his own and that no one will take them from his hand (cf. John 10:27-29).

    It's a catch-22 of Christianity. If you truly believe in Christ as your savior, then you can rest assured that you believe because God has given you the faith to do so. That faith is enabled by the Holy Spirit which came to dwell in your heart the moment you asked Christ into your life as savior.

    But if you later decide that you can't believe it anymore, it becomes retroactively true that you never had salvation to begin with.

    Convenient. And a lot more comforting for the believer than for a believer to countenance the idea that he or she can't actually know whether or not he or she is saved, regardless of outward professions or inward convictions -- an idea which terrorized early American Puritans.
  13. Standard membershavixmir
    Guppy poo
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    27 May '07 21:49
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    [b]Blakbuzzrd
    “What about someone like me who no longer believes? Do I still get grace? Is the unchangeable God's grace unwavering, or does it come and go depending on human belief?

    I refer you to 2 Timothy 2:13: "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." Also worth considering is Numbers 23:19: "God is not a man that h ...[text shortened]... so I’m assuming you just forgot about this
    or have not had time to get back to it.
    Kelly[/b]
    Don't worry about it dude.

    I called that God out...and he didn't come.
    He ain't there. He don't exist. He's just a figment of these idiot's imaginations.

    Don't worry. You're with us now. The rationaly!
  14. Standard memberblakbuzzrd
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    27 May '07 21:54
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Bummer. Another person actually using his own mind and overcoming the insidious brainwashing of your precious christianity.
    I wouldn't call it brainwashing. I think people sincerely try to find out how to relate to God. I tried. I still try, but it looks different now.

    To your point, though, I do think that when you invest yourself as heavily in a biblically-oriented perspective as is customary in some xian subcultures, it becomes difficult or even impossible to reason outside that set of assumptions.

    There's simply no common ground for fair argument.

    For xians, the bible is the authority for truth about God, and consequently provides them with a set of lenses for interpreting life. Their language is shaped by it, and to wax linguistic, consequently their thinking is ordered along certain hard lines. To ask a Christian to argue without using the Bible as authority is asking them to walk with no legs, or more precisely, to deny the integral nature of their faith. It isn't because they are idiots, but because the nature of their faith is such that all life events go through the framework of biblical interpretation.

    For some that amounts to wearing blinders, and for some it makes all of life clear to them.
  15. Standard memberblakbuzzrd
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    27 May '07 21:57
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    [b]Blakbuzzrd
    “What about someone like me who no longer believes? Do I still get grace? Is the unchangeable God's grace unwavering, or does it come and go depending on human belief?

    I refer you to 2 Timothy 2:13: "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." Also worth considering is Numbers 23:19: "God is not a man that h ...[text shortened]... so I’m assuming you just forgot about this
    or have not had time to get back to it.
    Kelly[/b]
    I haven't forgotten -- I'm traveling on vacation this week. I picked the wrong week to argue!
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