Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Sorry, ep, but you'll eventually be adjusting your view on this one at some point, as well.

Man can do nothing to gain the approbation of God. No work, no deed, no amount of penance. Faith alone in Christ alone is the only source of salvation. There is nothing meritorious about faith. If we can do nothing to gain said salvation---once gained--- we c ...[text shortened]... he life they live afterward. Your interpretations of the verses quoted otherwise are in error.

"For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt" (Hebrews 6:4-6).

"‘Then they will hand you over to be tortured and will put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of my name. Then many will fall away, and they will betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because of the increase of lawlessness, the love of many will grow cold. But anyone who endures to the end will be saved" (Matthew 24:9-13).

"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment that was passed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, ‘The dog turns back to its own vomit’, and, ‘The sow is washed only to wallow in the mud'" (2 Peter 2:20-22).

"I am giving you these instructions, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies made earlier about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, having faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have suffered shipwreck in the faith" (1Timothy 1:18-19).

"Therefore, my beloved, be steadfast, immovable, always excelling in the work of the Lord, because you know that in the Lord your labor is not in vain" (1 Corinthians 15:58).

"Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Beware, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison so that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have affliction. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life" (Revelation 2:10).

"For we have become partners of Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end. Let us therefore make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one may fall through such disobedience as theirs" (Hebrews 3:14, 4:11).

"What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, and one of you says to them, ‘Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill’, and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

"But someone will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith without works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith without works is barren? Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness’, and he was called the friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. Likewise, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another road? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead" (James 2:14-26).

"‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord”, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?” Then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers"" (Matthew 7:21-23).

"He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit" (John 15:2).

"For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery" (Galatians 5:1).
____________________________________________________________________

There is nothing meritorious about grace, nevertheless we must labor to bear fruit for the kingdom. Grace is opposed to earning, but grace is not opposed to effort. Biblically speaking, faith requires effort, otherwise it is dead. The doctrine of eternal security supposes that a born-again person can sin without repentance yet remain saved. Not so, as the above passages indicate, for it is entirely possible for someone to lose what God had freely given. Namely, by not continuing in Him.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
"For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up t ...[text shortened]... se what God had freely given. Namely, by not continuing in Him.

You're one of the few Christians that I've come across that believes that one must actually "deny thyself". How is it that you've come to this understanding, yet so many others haven't? Have you had any success in imparting this understanding to others?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Sorry, ep, but you'll eventually be adjusting your view on this one at some point, as well.

Man can do nothing to gain the approbation of God. No work, no deed, no amount of penance. Faith alone in Christ alone is the only source of salvation. There is nothing meritorious about faith. If we can do nothing to gain said salvation---once gained--- we c ...[text shortened]... he life they live afterward. Your interpretations of the verses quoted otherwise are in error.

Man can do nothing to gain the approbation of God. No work, no deed, no amount of penance. Faith alone in Christ alone is the only source of salvation. There is nothing meritorious about faith.

This is true.

"But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast" (Ephesians 2:4-9).

If we can do nothing to gain said salvation---once gained--- we can do nothing to lose it, either.

This is where we need to define our terms. "Once gained" means different things to different kinds of Christians. If by 'once gained' you are referring to a full, permanent repentance, then yes, a Christian's salvation cannot be lost. However, if by 'once gained' you mean a Christian merely needs to declare faith in Jesus Christ without the need to exhibit a renewed and holy life, then no, a Christian's salvation is not secure. "You will know them by their fruits' (Matthew 7:16).

Keep in mind, I'm not saying genuinely repentant Christians cannot sin, or that falling into sin means that one has lost salvation. Forgiveness is always extended to us when we fall. What I am saying is that a born-again Christian must exhibit regeneration by living a holy life (e.g. progressively overcoming sin through repentance, seeking the Lord, obeying God's law, giving generously, giving thanks, worshiping God, following the Spirit, growing in love, peace, hope, etc.), otherwise their repentance has either been superficial or insincere; perhaps even based in no more than intellectual assent. "The children of God and the children of the devil are revealed in this way: all who do not do what is right are not from God, nor are those who do not love their brothers and sisters" (1 John 3:10).

Jesus defines his sheep as those who follow him. Those who follow Jesus shall never be taken from his hand: "My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:27-28). Only those who follow Jesus are known by Jesus; only they are eternally secure. "Then Jesus told his disciples, ‘If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me" (Matthew 16:24). If a born-again Christian is not worshiping the Lord as a 'living sacrifice' and obeying God's commandments, then he or she is hardly secure no matter how vociferous they are in professing Christ as Lord. "These people constantly honor Me with their lips, but their hearts hold off and are far distant from Me" (Mark 7:6).

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You're one of the few Christians that I've come across that believes that one must actually "deny thyself". How is it that you've come to this understanding, yet so many others haven't? Have you had any success in imparting this understanding to others?

How is it that you've come to this understanding, yet so many others haven't?

By reading the bible? 🙂

Have you had any success in imparting this understanding to others?

It doesn't really come up all that often in conversation. For myself, I just stay away from churches where 'cheap grace' is preached.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
"For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up t ...[text shortened]... se what God had freely given. Namely, by not continuing in Him.

This thread's for you:

Thread 69950

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]How is it that you've come to this understanding, yet so many others haven't?

By reading the bible? 🙂

Have you had any success in imparting this understanding to others?

It doesn't really come up all that often in conversation. For myself, I just stay away from churches where 'cheap grace' is preached.[/b]

Yeah, though you'd think reading the bible would be enough for others as well 🙁 This is something that has baffled me for some time. I was just hoping you had some insight to share from your experience.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Yeah, though you'd think reading the bible would be enough for others as well 🙁

Why would you think that? To my knowledge (tips hat to FreakyKBH), at no time in history have all xians agreed on doctrine, regardless of which bible they used or how much they read it.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
A 'cold' Christian blends in with the world and nobody recognizes him as a Christian (and therefore is not a threat to God's kingdom). A 'hot' Christian is on fire for the Lord and leads people into the kingdom. A 'lukewarm' Christian is a blend of both hot and cold, and therefore lives according to the world, yet claims to be a Christian. A lukewarm ...[text shortened]... as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne" (Revelation 3:19-21).

"A 'cold' Christian blends in with the world and nobody recognizes him as a Christian (and therefore is not a threat to God's kingdom). "

I disagree with your view of the cold.

If someone professes Christ yet you cannot tell the difference between
them and the world, I'd say you are looking at someone in the world
not a Christian. In my opinion those are the ones that are doing their
level best to find away to take Christ and God out of Christianity to the
point where they do it, except all they really have done is walk away
from God and Christ in the reality of Christianity.
Kelly

Originally posted by blakbuzzrd
This thread's for you:

Thread 69950

I agree. Tomorrow at work I'll see what I can do about tying everything together in a more personal way. Thanks for taking the time to address my irresponsible and sophomoric writing (because it is that).

Peace.

Originally posted by blakbuzzrd
I answered you in the "Food for Thought" thread, before I saw this one. For simplicity's sake, I copy my response from that thread into this one:

Yeah, I had the full-bore saved by faith in Jesus thang.

In good faith, I started looking into the origins of xianity and the bible, and historicizing xianity (placing the practices and beliefs in the cont ...[text shortened]... s of logic came, and the waters of probability rose, well, you know how the parable ends.

So bottom line this for me, again I understand you had 'faith', we can
have faith in a lot of things, the question that matters is what you
had it in. Did you have a relationship with God in Christ? If the answer
to that was no, okay, if the answer to that was yes, okay. I'm not
asking if you belonged to a denomination, or that you didn't like
some of your church denomination history and so on. I don't care
what 'group' you ran with, I want to know when were walking in
your 'faith' did you have an experience where God entered your life, or
not? When you walked away from Christianity was it walking away from
something man gave you, or God who you knew?
Kelly

Originally posted by blakbuzzrd
Why would you think that? To my knowledge (tips hat to FreakyKBH), at no time in history have all xians agreed on doctrine, regardless of which bible they used or how much they read it.

And why would we? After all, is the inspired word of God fallible or is it the readers of the text? I say it is the readers. What worries me are those faiths in which no dissagreement is allowed. Such organized religions to me are cults. The focus is usually either the organization or a charismatic leader and they are very controlling in this regard. I dare say that such cults may even fall within those that call themselves "Christians". For me, the focus should be seeking God and studying his word. Therefore, for me the different denominations within Christianity is a sign of strength in this regard, not a weakness. After all, who has ALL the answers yet we can all agree together that Christ is the way to God and the beginning for our search..

Originally posted by blakbuzzrd
Why would you think that? To my knowledge (tips hat to FreakyKBH), at no time in history have all xians agreed on doctrine, regardless of which bible they used or how much they read it.

Do you really think anyone's not aware of that?

"You'd think" is often used as a variation on 'if only' that more strongly connotes a disappointment (even disdain) with the state of affairs.

Why so pedantic? 🙂

Originally posted by KellyJay
So bottom line this for me, again I understand you had 'faith', we can
have faith in a lot of things, the question that matters is what you
had it in. Did you have a relationship with God in Christ? If the answer
to that was no, okay, if the answer to that was yes, okay. I'm not
asking if you belonged to a denomination, or that you didn't like
some of ...[text shortened]... istianity was it walking away from
something man gave you, or God who you knew?
Kelly

I haven't forgotten your question, Kellyjay. I'm contemplating the best way to answer, while trying hard to appear to my friends and family that I am on vacation. Your question is actually similar to one whodey asked earlier, and I'd like to answer both if I can.

Originally posted by blakbuzzrd
I haven't forgotten your question, Kellyjay. I'm contemplating the best way to answer, while trying hard to appear to my friends and family that I am on vacation. Your question is actually similar to one whodey asked earlier, and I'd like to answer both if I can.

Good enough for me, just say when, my vacation starts this coming
Friday so I may or may not be on line when it begins, since our is
going to be a road trip. I'll have my lap top, but do not know how
much I'll be using it outside of down loading pictures on it.
Kelly

Originally posted by blakbuzzrd
I have arrived. I have a thread calling me out by name now!

Now to bidness:

An evangelical xian maintains that if someone actually falls away from the faith, then that person wasn't really of the faith, since Christ promises to protect his own and that no one will take them from his hand (cf. John 10:27-29).

It's a catch-22 of Christianity. If yo ...[text shortened]... tward professions or inward convictions -- an idea which terrorized early American Puritans.

Wish there was a thread calling me out..... you lucky git !!!!😵