Can a christian benefit from psychotherapy?

Originally posted by josephw
Well, maybe not that good.
Without throwing the baby out with the bath water, I am willing to concede that the study of human behavior,(psychology), isn't without merit, at least in terms of having an understanding of the prevailing secular view of what motivates us to act the way we do. But I do not believe there is any man made therapy that can provide th an, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Etc. etc. etc.

Would you say then that a person who has benefited from such therapy—say, for an addiction—cannot be, at that time, a Christian (according to your definition)?

If someone suffers from depression, does that mean they are not a Christian? If they seek help from a certified counselor/therapist, does that mean they are not really a Christian?

Would you say that anyone in AA is not really a Christian? Or that someone who has achieved and maintained sobriety through continuing AA therapy could, upon becoming a true Christian, safely stop that and any other therapies without fear of relapse? What about someone who continues in AA, but Christ is the “higher power” to which they have turned over their will and the care of their lives (3rd step)? What about similar 12-step programs (e.g., Smokers Anonymous, Al-Anon, etc.)?

You said “any other therapies.” I assume you are not referring to physical therapy for an injury? Speech therapy? Meditation techniques for chronic pain management?

Originally posted by vistesd
Would you say then that a person who has benefited from such therapy—say, for an addiction—cannot be, at that time, a Christian (according to your definition)?

If someone suffers from depression, does that mean they are not a Christian? If they seek help from a certified counselor/therapist, does that mean they are not really a Christian?

Would you sa ...[text shortened]... ical therapy for an injury? Speech therapy? Meditation techniques for chronic pain management?

Good questions. I hope he answers these (as well as kirksey's) in his next post...

what josephw means is, you cant teach an old dog new tricks.

Originally posted by vistesd
Would you say then that a person who has benefited from such therapy—say, for an addiction—cannot be, at that time, a Christian (according to your definition)?

If someone suffers from depression, does that mean they are not a Christian? If they seek help from a certified counselor/therapist, does that mean they are not really a Christian?

Would you sa ...[text shortened]... ical therapy for an injury? Speech therapy? Meditation techniques for chronic pain management?

I'll try to clarify.
I am referring here to therapies that deal with correcting or modifying negative behaviors, and not to any physical therapies.
I wish I could make this clear: The 'new man' is 'Christ in you'. It is by the 'word of God' that the new man is developed and 'conformed to the image' of Christ. The 'therapies' developed by man are only effective on the 'old man', that is, 'the flesh', and may appear beneficial for a time, but have no lasting value in light of our eternal destiny.
Yes, christians do seek help from sources other than what God has provided. But it is because they are unaware of what is available to them 'in Christ'.

Originally posted by josephw
I'll try to clarify.
I am referring here to therapies that deal with correcting or modifying negative behaviors, and not to any physical therapies.
I wish I could make this clear: The 'new man' is 'Christ in you'. It is by the 'word of God' that the new man is developed and 'conformed to the image' of Christ. The 'therapies' developed by man are only effec ...[text shortened]... d. But it is because they are unaware of what is available to them 'in Christ'.

Its not any clearer yet.
So do you include the AA for example as 'correcting or modifying negative behaviors'?
If so, are all Christian AA members unaware of what is available to them 'in Christ'?
Are benefits that have no 'lasting value in light of our eternal destiny' to be discarded? Do medicines from the hospital have 'lasting value in light of our eternal destiny'? If not then should Christians also stop taking medicine?

Originally posted by josephw
I'll try to clarify.
I am referring here to therapies that deal with correcting or modifying negative behaviors, and not to any physical therapies.
I wish I could make this clear: The 'new man' is 'Christ in you'. It is by the 'word of God' that the new man is developed and 'conformed to the image' of Christ. The 'therapies' developed by man are only effec ...[text shortened]... d. But it is because they are unaware of what is available to them 'in Christ'.

AA is a spiritual program. How do you know that God hasn't "provided" it? Additionally, there are many people who have come to believe in God because of 12 Step programs. It seems as though you are limiting God and saying he can only work through the Bible and preachers. And yet I don't know of a single alcoholic who has achieved sobriety through simply reading the Bible and going to church. On the other hand, millions of people have achieved sobriety -- and very long-term sobriety -- through AA. I can't help but thing our unlimited Creator is involved there somewhere rather than sitting back and saying "Silly mortals. Just read the Bible and the end results will be exactly the same or even better." But if your God is limited and doesn't work through people, that's really kind of sad.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Unlike medicine proper, some schools of psycho-therapy do have views of the human person that are incompatible with Christianity.

Better to say that some (many?) psycho-therapy techniques can benefit Christians.

Agreed. The "therapy" teachings of for instance the Church of Scientology is one of the examples which are not compatible with Christian teachings.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Agreed. The "therapy" teachings of for instance the Church of Scientology is one of the examples which are not compatible with Christian teachings.

The fact that you put the word 'therapy' in quotes means you are well aware that it's not a recognized
form of psychotherapy to begin with. I think it's safe to assume that josephw's bald assertion referred
to mainstream psychotherapy (although who knows, since he hasn't backed up his dumb claim with
anything yet).

Nemesio

Originally posted by josephw
As I 'recon' my old man as dead, and focus on the 'one new man', that is, 'Christ in me', I can then begin to see how the application of Gods' word to my life causes me to grow into what I am now designed to become.

That's exactly the point of effective xian therapy: to help you know yourself, and in so doing, to know better what is the distinction between God and yourself, and to map those places where you have been unable to hear or comprehend the Word because of your very natural response to the inevitable trauma of life.

It works. But it is deep work, because it in fact does deal with your core identity and everything that flows from that.

What doesn't work is the ridiculous practice of reducing all human experience to terms that can be summarily dealt with by pointing to a bible verse. That's dealing with the outer man.

Joseph, you are getting some really good questions and points. I'm not going to ask you a question, but rather share a little bit about my own professional/personal development to help illustrate the point that others are making.

Early in my training to be a minister, I entered a residency program of two years to better equip ministers to be better chaplains, therapists, etc. The director of this program was a very spiritual man. He was also very wise and well respected around the country as an innovator in the field. He required every person participating in this program to be in psychotherapy. He felt so strongly about it that there was finacial assistance to pay for it, and it was not cheap. Buyt every person entering that program was told this was the requirement. Of course some didn't like the idea, but he said, "you know, it is quite hypocritical to go visit patients and people with problems and ask them to do something with you that you are not willing to do or go through yourself."

And that is why there is a crisis in pastoral authority in churches today. We have a generation of ministers who know what is right for everyone else, yet have not taken the courageous jouney of people like Freud, Jung, Bill W. and countless others whom I have to believe were as inspired as many in the Bible who spoke truth after listening to the "Spirit." You may not like all of Freud's emphasis, but give the man credit for his courage and lighting a spark on a little imagined frontier. Even Jung once said that he had never encountered a single person in his practice where the problem was not spiritual in nature.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Its not any clearer yet.
So do you include the AA for example as 'correcting or modifying negative behaviors'?
If so, are all Christian AA members unaware of what is available to them 'in Christ'?
Are benefits that have no 'lasting value in light of our eternal destiny' to be discarded? Do medicines from the hospital have 'lasting value in light of our eternal destiny'? If not then should Christians also stop taking medicine?

So do you include the AA for example as 'correcting or modifying negative behaviors'?

I've been in AA. What's AA for? It's were one goes when one knows he has a drinking problem, and to get support to stop drinking. But, if one continues to say, "hi, I'm Joe, and I'm an alcoholic and drug addict", then that's what one continues to be. But if one says to ones self, "hey, wait a minute, I chose to abuse alcohol and drugs, now I choose not to", all of a sudden things take on a whole new perspective.

If so, are all Christian AA members unaware of what is available to them 'in Christ'?

I seriously doubt it. Few christians today are aware of just what it means to be "in Christ". Why else are christians so divided?

Are benefits that have no 'lasting value in light of our eternal destiny' to be discarded? Do medicines from the hospital have 'lasting value in light of our eternal destiny'? If not then should Christians also stop taking medicine?[/b]

You need to see that I am differentiating between the flesh and the spirit. If I brake my arm I go to the doctor, but if I have a spiritual issue I go to the word of God.

Originally posted by josephw
So do you include the AA for example as 'correcting or modifying negative behaviors'?

I've been in AA. What's AA for? It's were one goes when one knows he has a drinking problem, and to get support to stop drinking. But, if one continues to say, "hi, I'm Joe, and I'm an alcoholic and drug addict", then that's what one continues to be. But if one says to ...[text shortened]... I go to the doctor, but if I have a spiritual issue I go to the word of God.

While one may no longer be a practicing alcoholic, the body's responses to alcohol don't disappear simply because one has stopped drinking. Do you believe that the "new man" you are can now drink like a "normal" person?

Originally posted by pawnhandler
AA is a spiritual program. How do you know that God hasn't "provided" it? Additionally, there are many people who have come to believe in God because of 12 Step programs. It seems as though you are limiting God and saying he can only work through the Bible and preachers. And yet I don't know of a single alcoholic who has achieved sobriety through sim ...[text shortened]... But if your God is limited and doesn't work through people, that's really kind of sad.

My friend, you say AA is a spiritual program. And you say that because that's what they told you.

Gods' "spiritual program" is in his word.

I hope you will rethink about where and how an individual comes to believe and gets saved. It is in, of, by, and through Gods' word the bible. I understand that some one may have been in AA when they trusted Christ, but AA had nothing to do with that persons salvation.
Technically speaking.

And as to the rest of your post these two verses come to mind. 1Cor.3:10&11 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

And if going to AA helps a person stay sober, then good. But I do not put AA on a par with what Gods' word can do. Not even close.

Originally posted by blakbuzzrd
That's exactly the point of effective xian therapy: to help you know yourself, and in so doing, to know better what is the distinction between God and yourself, and to map those places where you have been unable to hear or comprehend the Word because of your very natural response to the inevitable trauma of life.

It works. But it is deep work, because ...[text shortened]... can be summarily dealt with by pointing to a bible verse. That's dealing with the outer man.

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

It's not at all about ME. It's ALL about him.

Originally posted by pawnhandler
While one may no longer be a practicing alcoholic, the body's responses to alcohol don't disappear simply because one has stopped drinking. Do you believe that the "new man" you are can now drink like a "normal" person?

You're missing the point. The "new man" is "Christ in you".