Can a christian benefit from psychotherapy?

Originally posted by josephw
My friend, you say AA is a spiritual program. And you say that because that's what they told you.

Gods' "spiritual program" is in his word.

I hope you will rethink about where and how an individual comes to believe and gets saved. It is in, of, by, and through Gods' word the bible. I understand that some one may have been in AA when they trusted Christ ...[text shortened]... ober, then good. But I do not put AA on a par with what Gods' word can do. Not even close.

Every mature* AA member that I have known understands alcoholism as a chronic addiction that goes beyond abuse. That is, an alcoholic cannot “use but not abuse” alcohol. If you discovered that you could “use but not abuse,” then you were not an alcoholic—glad you discovered that, though.

The ongoing therapy in 12-step programs involves working the steps in ongoing relationship with a sponsor/counselor, as well as participating in meetings.

* By “mature” I just loosely mean someone who has been working the steps and maintaining sobriety for at least a few years.

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My friend, you say AA is a spiritual program. And you say that because that's what they told you.

No, it’s a spiritual program because its therapy is based on the ongoing spiritual acknowledgement of steps, specifically steps 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 10, 11, and 12. The whole thing is based on a “spiritual awakening” (step 12).

Your objection seems to be that that “spiritual awakening” might not be a Christian one.

I have never heard a single 12-step person assert that it would effect eternal salvation.

I have never heard a single 12-step person try to dissuade someone from being a Christian; 12-step programs are not restricted to Christians either (although perhaps there is one that is; the ones that I am familiar with are not).

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Given your comments about not discarding benefits that are unrelated to our eternal destiny, I assume that you do not have any objections to beneficial forms of therapy that are non-Christian (though you might if they were anti-Christian). This seems to be different from your position in the first couple of posts—but, perhaps, as you say, we misread you.

Originally posted by kirksey957
Joseph, you are getting some really good questions and points. I'm not going to ask you a question, but rather share a little bit about my own professional/personal development to help illustrate the point that others are making.

Early in my training to be a minister, I entered a residency program of two years to better equip ministers to be better ch ncountered a single person in his practice where the problem was not spiritual in nature.

Kirk, that's very nice. And while you were pursuing a professional career and rubbing elbows with the elite I was in the trenches with all manner of low life getting the kicked out of me until I realised I was on a collision course with disaster. Actually, it was a disaster.

I recovered. Quite nicely too. And no thanks to Freud or Jung or skinner or anyone else. To God be the glory.

The bible contains everything one needs for life and godliness. Within it's pages are all the answers to any problem a man or woman will face in this life. The trick is knowing how to access it.

And please don't think your words were lost on me. I understand exactly what you are talking about. Do you understand what it means to be "complete in him"?

Originally posted by vistesd
Every mature* AA member that I have known understands alcoholism as a chronic addiction that goes beyond abuse. That is, an alcoholic cannot “use but not abuse” alcohol. If you discovered that you could “use but not abuse,” then you were not an alcoholic—glad you discovered that, though.

The ongoing therapy in 12-step programs involves working the steps ...[text shortened]... erent from your position in the first couple of posts—but, perhaps, as you say, we misread you.

We just don't "see" the world the same way. If I even try to state my objections to your assertions I would be stumped by you on every point. And rightly so, but only because your argument is based on a world or humanistic view of life.
I make my appeal based on a spiritual view which is inconsistent with human philosophy.
Now how can I state my case to you if my argument is based on the deliberations of a God you do not acknowledge?

Perhaps you would tell me were you are the weakest so I can make a frontal attack! 😛

Originally Posted by JosephW

I hope you will rethink about where and how an individual comes to believe and gets saved. It is in, of, by, and through Gods' word the bible.

Are you saying that you believe the only way an individual can come to believe in God is through the Bible?

If you believe that God created the world and everything in it (whether in six days or not 😉), why couldn't certain worldly experiences lead to belief in God, too?

Originally posted by josephw
We just don't "see" the world the same way. If I even try to state my objections to your assertions I would be stumped by you on every point. And rightly so, but only because your argument is based on a world or humanistic view of life.

I make my appeal based on a spiritual view which is inconsistent with human philosophy.

That sounds like an excuse, not to mention a passive-agressive jab, if I ever heard one.

You have voiced your "objections" to everyone else's questions and assertions thus far, why not attempt to answer his, too?

I for one would like to hear what you have to say, especially regarding vistesd's questions. He took the time to come up with those questions, couldn't you take the time to answer them when you have a chance?

Originally posted by josephw
Kirk, that's very nice. And while you were pursuing a professional career and rubbing elbows with the elite I was in the trenches with all manner of low life getting the kicked out of me until I realised I was on a collision course with disaster. Actually, it was a disaster.

I recovered. Quite nicely too. And no thanks to Freud or Jung or skinner or ...[text shortened]... xactly what you are talking about. Do you understand what it means to be "complete in him"?

Did you ever see the Sopranos when Tony was in therapy?

Originally posted by josephw
We just don't "see" the world the same way. If I even try to state my objections to your assertions I would be stumped by you on every point. And rightly so, but only because your argument is based on a world or humanistic view of life.
I make my appeal based on a spiritual view which is inconsistent with human philosophy.
Now how can I state my case to y ...[text shortened]... e?

Perhaps you would tell me were you are the weakest so I can make a frontal attack! 😛

Isn't your spiritual view very limited though? If you read the Bible, surely you've noticed that God works through people as well as through the natural world. At no point in either the Hebrew Scriptures (OT) nor in the Christian Scriptures (NT) does God or anyone else mention that the written words are all that matter or the only path to God. Had you lived during the time of Jesus, would you have denied your lived experience of being around this man, hearing his words, seeing his actions, and instead clung to the Hebrew Scriptures because they were in writing and the word of God? Can you show me where in the Bible it says that the path to God is only through the written word of God?

Originally posted by kirksey957
Did you ever see the Sopranos when Tony was in therapy?

I grew up watching TV. Threw it out of my house a decade ago.
I'm into reality now. Whatever that is. 😕

Originally posted by josephw
I grew up watching TV. Threw it out of my house a decade ago.
I'm into reality now. Whatever that is. 😕

Somehow I figured you had some issues with reality.

Originally posted by pawnhandler
Isn't your spiritual view very limited though? If you read the Bible, surely you've noticed that God works through people as well as through the natural world. At no point in either the Hebrew Scriptures (OT) nor in the Christian Scriptures (NT) does God or anyone else mention that the written words are all that matter or the only path to God. Had you ...[text shortened]... the Bible it says that the path to God is only through the [b]written word of God?[/b]

Can you show me where in the Bible it says that the path to God is only through the written word of God?[/b]

Can you show me where I can find the path to God without the bible?

Originally posted by kirksey957
Somehow I figured you had some issues with reality.

That depends on what reality we're talking about.
The one we create for ourselves, or the one we ignore.

Originally posted by josephw
Can you show me where in the Bible it says that the path to God is only through the [b]written word of God?[/b]

Can you show me where I can find the path to God without the bible?[/b]

You could listen to DoctorScribbles, Mimor and me. Maybe a good Jewish psychotherapist.

Originally posted by kirksey957
You could listen to DoctorScribbles, Mimor and me. Maybe a good Jewish psychotherapist.

I can never tell when you're serious or not!

Originally posted by wittywonka
That sounds like an excuse, not to mention a passive-agressive jab, if I ever heard one.

You have voiced your "objections" to everyone else's questions and assertions thus far, why not attempt to answer his, too?

I for one would like to hear what you have to say, especially regarding vistesd's questions. He took the time to come up with those questions, couldn't you take the time to answer them when you have a chance?

What questions?