Can Christian Saints be tormented eternally?

Originally posted by sonship
Back to [b] Jesus.

Joseph I think was right that Rajk999 does not understand the Grace of the new covenant. But neither does he seem to understand the righteousness of God either.

...[/b]

Grace? Neither you nor Jospphw know what grace means. Paul explains it in detail in Romans 6

Read it. In summary Paul says:

- Grace makes the believer free from sin.
- they become servants of God and of righteousness
- If they continue in holiness they will in the END receive everlasting life
- But if they continue to sin, they will die.

You dont accept that. You think grace is a licence to continue to sin.

Originally posted by sonship
Alright, alright so we debate today. Perhaps some seeking person will get some benefit.
May the Lord Jesus be exalted. He is the attraction.

Where did you get the idea that anyone Christian or otherwise will be given a second chance to do the will of God after they are judged or after they die?

That is the most nonsensical piece of garbage doctrine ever devised by man. Its not in the Bible. The opposite is in fact stated in the Bible. This life is that ONE chance to live righteously. There is no other chance.

This following passage in Romans shows that God's SONS are still subject to His working on them unto perfection even though they positionally are in an eternally redeemed place.

" For compare Him who has endured such contradiction by sinners against Himself, so that you [sons] may not grow weary, fainting in your souls.

... You have completely forgotten the exhortation which reasons with you as with sons, 'My sin, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor faith when reproved by Him."

A son of God may still be reproved and disciplined by God.

"For whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and he scourges every son whom He receives."

Every son. No exceptions.

"It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons. For what son is there whom the father does not discipline? "

No exceptions.
You may postpone dealings but not get out of them.
You may procrastinate being perfected but it can only be temporary.

"But if you are without discipline, of which all sons have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons."

if you are saved forever you cannot put off being disciplined, perfected, adjusted forever. You may waste the entire church age postponing such work of the Father over you. But you will still undergo this work after the second coming of Christ during the thousand year kingdom.

" Furthermore we have had the fathers of our flesh as discipliners and we respected them; shall we not much more be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?

For they discipline for a few days as it seems good to them; but He, for what is profitable that we might partake of His holiness."

Without holiness wrought into him no one will see the Lord (Heb. 12:14)

Read on in the passage of Hebrews 12 from 11 to 14. All sons of God are and will be subject to God working Christ into their beings as holiness. Assurance of eternal redemption does not exempt anyone from the Father's dealings over His sons.

Rajk999 thinks a believer cannot have assurance of salvation because it will encourage him not to be made holy. Assurance of eternal redemption and eternal life is the best foundation for going on to know God the Father will perfect you inwardly to be like Christ.

Originally posted by Rajk999

You dont accept that. You think grace is a licence to continue to sin.

Why are you such a liar ??

"What then shall we say? Should we continue in sin that grace may abound?

Absolutely not! We who have died to sin, how shall we still live in it?" (Rom. 6:1,2)

You really do not learn anything.
You seem only to learn how to lie and slander a Christian more and more.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Grace? Neither you nor Jospphw know what grace means. Paul explains it in detail in Romans 6

Read it. In summary Paul says:

- Grace makes the believer free from sin.
- they become servants of God and of righteousness
- If they continue in holiness they will in the END receive everlasting life
- But if they continue to sin, they will die.

You dont accept that. You think grace is a licence to continue to sin.

You say this to everyone who disagrees with you, regardless of what they actually believe.

Originally posted by sonship
One sad thing is that some people are very slow to learn.
At a virtual standstill really.

Do you mean learn from you?

Originally posted by sonship

Sonship do you believe that there is a literal "book" with pages and a spine and paper etc, as well as a literal "lake of fire" as well as a literal eternal hell?

I don't feel that the physical characteristics of any [b]"Lamb's book of life" need to be argued over strenuously.

What is communicated is of the most importance.
If ...[text shortened]... of fire?
Will any amount of allegorizing make the lake of fire less of a horrible nightmare ?[/b]

Was that a yes or a no? I'm really not clear, it kind of reads like an elaborate dodge.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Where did you get the idea that anyone Christian or otherwise will be given a second chance to do the will of God after they are judged or after they die?

That is the most nonsensical piece of garbage doctrine ever devised by man. Its not in the Bible. The opposite is in fact stated in the Bible. This life is that ONE chance to live righteously. There is no other chance.

Where did you get the idea that anyone Christian or otherwise will be given a second chance to do the will of God after they are judged or after they die?

That is the most nonsensical piece of garbage doctrine ever devised by man. Its not in the Bible. The opposite is in fact stated in the Bible. This life is that ONE chance to live righteously. There is no other chance.

I do not like to dishonor readers by dignifying your immature posts with replies.

There is the church age.
There is the age of the millennial kingdom.
There is the age of eternity with the new heaven and new earth AFTER the millennial kingdom.

The flavor of cooperating with God after the second coming will be different.
It will have a different "taste". But it will be an interim age of His perfecting those who still require perfecting.

Some parables in Matthew about the servants of the Lord confirm this.

First Corinthians says some will be saved yet so as through fire. They will lose a reward.
The expression is ample ground to understand that suffering loss is for perfecting. And such suffering loss and perfecting in AFTER the judgment seat of Christ and therefore AFTER the second coming of Christ.

" If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:15)

This is AFTER the examination.
This is therefore AFTER the arrival of Jesus to administer reward or punishment to His servants.

Saved yet so as through fire surely should include some amount of perfecting and learning lessons which SHOULD have been learned in the age of grace.

The flavor and atmosphere of those times will be different from that in the age of grace.
But the goal is the same - to wrought Christ into the fabric of the believer's being.

If he cooperates in the age of grace he will be rewarded in the age of the millennium.
If he fails to cooperate in the age of grace, the church age, the lessons will not be done away. Under a different flavor in a different dispensation they must be learned.

Originally posted by divegeester
Was that a yes or a no? I'm really not clear, it kind of reads like an elaborate dodge.

Did you ever notice that sometimes they asked Jesus a question and He seemed not to answer it exactly according to their expectation?

IE. Will there be few or many who will be saved ?
Rather than giving statistics He taught them HOW they should enter.
Percentages is what they wanted. Directions on HOW to enter is what He gave them.

i answered you as I chose to answer you.
I think YOU dodge the essential matter by trying to inject literal verses allegorical debate about the matter of the book of life or the lake of fire.

What we are told is adequate for us to respond accordingly in drawing near to Jesus Christ.

No, I do not intend to debate with you the weight of the book of life or the temperature of the lake of fire.

Originally posted by divegeester
Do you mean learn from you?

Sometimes.

Um, I have made a little effort not to write really long monologues exclusively. Maybe you can make an effort not to just succumb to little chit chat comments.

Maybe we can meet half way.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] Where did you get the idea that anyone Christian or otherwise will be given a second chance to do the will of God after they are judged or after they die?

That is the most nonsensical piece of garbage doctrine ever devised by man. Its not in the Bible. The opposite is in fact stated in the Bible. This life is that ONE chance to live righteously. ...[text shortened]... ill not be done away. Under a different flavor in a different dispensation they must be learned.

More mumbo jumbo.

Paul said:

[i]And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Hebrews 9:27-28 KJV)

So here we have skepticism about the next age - the millennial kingdom.

Think about it. If there is such grace for eternal life, God in His never failing wisdom knows that some will cooperate with grace and some will rather not.

So before the eternal age He established an age of incentive to cooperate - the thousand year millennial kingdom. This is an age of reward.

After that is the full GIFT to all who were eternally redeemed. Think of graduating on time or graduating only after having to attend summer school.

Think of a timely graduation verses a remedial graduation.

Originally posted by sonship
So here we have skepticism about the next age - the millennial kingdom.

Think about it. If there is such [b]grace for eternal life, God in His never failing wisdom knows that some will cooperate with grace and some will rather not.

So before the eternal age He established an age of incentive to cooperate - the thousand year millennial kingdom. Thi ...[text shortened]... r having to attend summer school.

Think of a timely graduation verses a remedial graduation.[/b]

So Christian saints will in fact be tormented for 1000 years... according to you.

Originally posted by Rajk999
More mumbo jumbo.

Paul said:

[i]And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Hebrews 9:27-28 KJV)

So what about Hebrews 9:27-28. ?

And after the judgment seat of Christ the Christian who died may be rewarded or suffer loss yet still be saved.

Originally posted by Rajk999
So Christian saints will in fact be tormented for 1000 years... according to you.

Foolish one.

I said the SCOPE of the warning is wide enough to include whatever the Lord deems necessary.

In some extreme cases some will be hurt by the second death.
Those punished are said to be in the "outer darkness".