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Originally posted by Rajk999
You are saying that God will force and drag these unworthy Christians into His Kingdom... Utter nonsense. God does not force people to live righteously. Living righteously must be voluntary ...VOLUNTARY .. THERE IS FREE WILL
I didn't say that at all - force and drag Christians into His kingdom.
I do say God is a wise Father who knows how to give you the incentive.
How is it you cannot see all these elementary holes in your nonsense doctrine is amazing.
I am on very solid ground.
I pointed out God WILL deal with ALL of His sons for their perfection unto holiness in Hebrews 12:1-29.
Also in the teaching about the dealing with His servants the Lord said that one servant was placed under punishment UNTIL a certain time. UNTIL means it is temporary. And so the discipline of that servant was bounded until a certain point in time. Thus is was not eternal.
Matthew 18:34 [my emphasis]
English Standard Version
And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, UNTIL he should pay all his debt.
Berean Study Bible
In his anger, his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, UNTIL he should repay all that he owed.
Berean Literal Bible
And having been angry, his master delivered him to the jailers, UNTIL that he should pay all being owed to him.
So I have strong ground and yours is weaker.
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So we have those complaining that "This is too scary".
So out of one side of the mouth skeptics want to call religious people hypocrites, failing to live up to their Gospel, dishonoring the Master, misrepresenting Jesus, dragging things noble down into the dirt and bringing disrepute to a teaching which does have some good things in it.
But if we talk about consequences for being a defeated Christian, then the criticism switches to "Fearmongering!" .
See how you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't ? (no pun intended).
Whatever the approach - "We can't take that."
29 May 17
Originally posted by sonshipStrong ground? .. because you cannot read, and instead you twist it to mean what you want.You are saying that God will force and drag these unworthy Christians into His Kingdom... Utter nonsense. God does not force people to live righteously. Living righteously must be voluntary ...VOLUNTARY .. THERE IS FREE WILL
I didn't say that at all - force and drag Christians into His kingdom.
I do say God is a wise Father who knows how ...[text shortened]... at he should pay all being owed to him.
[/quote]
So I have strong ground and your's is weak.
Paul in 1 Cor 3, said they are DESTROYED. But you say NO.
In Hebrews 12, the example of Esau was given. He displeased God, he repented but was not forgiven.. the warning about falling from Gods grace is made crystal clear .. to all but you:
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
(Hebrews 12:15-17 KJV)
Smart readers will take note. Christian who fall from Gods grace are in grave danger of eternal destrudtion or according to you eternal torment.
29 May 17
Originally posted by sonshipI think this is a mischaracterization of the objection J357 has raised.
So we have those complaining that "This is too scary".
So out of one side of the mouth skeptics want to call religious people hypocrites, failing to live up to their Gospel, dishonoring the Master, misrepresenting Jesus, dragging things noble down into the dirt and bringing disrepute to a teaching which does have some good things in it.
But if we talk ...[text shortened]... u're damned if you don't ? (no pun intended).
Whatever the approach - "We can't take that."
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29 May 17
Originally posted by Rajk999
Paul in 1 Cor 3, said they are DESTROYED. But you say NO.
The context is "suffer loss, but he himself will be saved yet so as through fire." (v.15)
That is the context of verse 16 and 17.
"Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? (v.16)
If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; fpr the temple of God is holy, and such are you." (v.17)
So ... for the Christian to attempt to BUILD the church of Christ on the foundation of Christ with the inferior building materials, he will suffer loss. The works of building with inferior substances will not survive the fiery examination of the Lord Jesus a the judgment seat of Christ.
He will suffer loss corresponds to be will be destroyed.
Yet he is not utterly destroyed to perish because he will still be saved, yet so as through fire.
The building material of the living holy temple of God, the church, can only be the Christ wrought into our being. The time of tolerating Christian's attempting to build on the foundation of Christ with the inferior substances of the old man, signified by flammable wood, grass and stubble WILL come to rude termination point.
No reward for the millennial kingdom, but no loss of eternal redemption.
Loss of the old way of living out of the fallen self.
That will be destroyed as unholy.
Once again such a disciplined one is saved still, yet so as through fire.
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Originally posted by Rajk999
Strong ground? .. because you cannot read, and instead you twist it to mean what you want.
Paul in 1 Cor 3, said they are DESTROYED. But you say NO.
In Hebrews 12, the example of Esau was given. He displeased God, he repented but was not forgiven.. the warning about falling from Gods grace is made crystal clear .. to all but you:
[i]Looking dili ...[text shortened]... from Gods grace are in grave danger of eternal destrudtion or according to you eternal torment.
Christian who fall from Gods grace are in grave danger of eternal destrudtion or according to you eternal torment.
As to eternal judgment EVERYONE who believes into Jesus Christ HAS ALREADY BEEN JUDGED.
On Calvary on the cross of Christ he or she was condemned in Him.
As to eternal judgment it has already taken place at Calvary for the believer.
Now, having been made a son of the Father, you cannot completely get away from His perfecting you by working Christ into you. That is that you may not only be positionally holy but dispositionally holy as well.
We saw that in Hebrews 12.
God's eternal plan is to conform the saved into the image of the Firstborn Son.
" Because those whom He foreknew, he also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers."(Rom. 8:29)
Therefore forgiveness is not an end in itself.
Redemption is not an end in itself.
Forgiveness, Justification, Redemption are a procedure towards the goal of God working Christ into people to conform them to the image of Christ. That is the the Firstborn Son may be followed by many sons, many perfected transformed, sanctified, resurrected, glorified and transfigured sons.
God wants to mass produce Christ in billions of people. He wants the standard model of His Son to be the prototype for the mass production of sons of God.
This is that God may have a corporate temple - a living habitation a house of God's dwelling on the earth.
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29 May 17
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipThere may be skeptics speaking out of both sides of their mouths, but my position has at the least, evolved. Please show me where I wrongly called someone a hypocrite etc.
So we have those complaining that "This is too scary".
So out of one side of the mouth skeptics want to call religious people hypocrites, failing to live up to their Gospel, dishonoring the Master, misrepresenting Jesus, dragging things noble down into the dirt and bringing disrepute to a teaching which does have some good things in it.
But if we talk ...[text shortened]... u're damned if you don't ? (no pun intended).
Whatever the approach - "We can't take that."
You seem to be rolling us all into one. We are, like you, individuals who have differences.
29 May 17
Originally posted by sonshipMore nonsense.Christian who fall from Gods grace are in grave danger of eternal destrudtion or according to you eternal torment.
As to eternal judgment EVERYONE who believes into Jesus Christ HAS ALREADY BEEN JUDGED.
On Calvary on the cross of Christ he or she was condemned in Him.
As to eternal judgment it has already taken place at Calvary for t ...[text shortened]... at God may have a corporate temple - a living habitation a house of God's dwelling on the earth.
Paul says Christians who defile themselves will be DESTROYED,
Hebrews says no forgiveness just like in Esau's case.
Jesus says the unprofitable servant is cast into the eternal fire.
Yet you and your church fabricate your own doctrine.
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29 May 17
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipTo the extent that you may have formulated a generic skeptic that I am not, your take on my concern is flawed. If you want to look at old posts between me and others like G. Bobby, you'll see that fearmongering is practically my only issue with Christianity in this forum. It is because you don't really know who you are affecting and how you are affecting them. You don't seem to care about consequences as long as you are getting the word out.
It is possible.
My apologies if I do not grasp your concern there J357.
Edit: please note I am not taking sides on your discussion with Rajk. I am neither qualified nor concerned.
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29 May 17
Originally posted by JS357It is correct that I sometime hastily forget the details of a single poster's attitude.
To the extent that you may have formulated a generic skeptic that I am not, your take on my concern is flawed. If you want to look at old posts between me and others like G. Bobby, you'll see that fearmongering is practically my only issue with Christianity in this forum. It is because you don't really know who you are affecting and how you are affecting them. You don't seem to care about consequences as long as you are getting the word out.
I may not remember all of your comments.
Generally I know poster JS357 is not usually one of the more belligerent ones.
And I am sorry if in the heat of responding to several frontal assaults I get mixed up.
Tell you what. I'll go back to some of those exchanges because I kind of miss Grampy Bobby. And we did not always agree.
It is good for me that people disagree with me a little.
Then I'll gain more Christ.
Then I'll have to go and pray earnestly more.
Now to the matter of affecting people or recklessness:
If you're waiting for Perfect Christian to come along, please don't hold your breath.
Like every other brother or sister in Jesus, I be a work in progress.
When I think back on my college days when I first crossed the paths of believers in Jesus causing me some reaction, I don't thing a ONE of them was a perfect person.
Now if the Lord gets into you, YOU'RE going to want to tell someone else too.
You'll feel that you just HAVE to let others know.
And you'll be a work in progress too.
Maybe I can learn more from you then.
Originally posted by sonshipJS357 Is a good guy, who I have disagreements with on most things. He is also one of
It is correct that I sometime hastily forget the details of a single poster's attitude.
I may not remember all of your comments.
Generally I know poster [b]JS357 is not usually one of the more belligerent ones.
And I am sorry if in the heat of responding to several frontal assaults I get mixed up.
Tell you what. I'll go back to some of those exch ...[text shortened]... et others know.
And you'll be a work in progress too.
Maybe I can learn more from you then.[/b]
those for me at like Ghost if they disagree with something I am saying I have to spend
time thinking about my stance because I find them stand up people. If I ever insult either of
them I'd feel bad about it.
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29 May 17
Originally posted by sonshipAt least the inquiring mind can by reading this forum, see what issues exist between Christians and between them and various nonbelievers, and can see how they are argued.
It is correct that I sometime hastily forget the details of a single poster's attitude.
I may not remember all of your comments.
Generally I know poster [b]JS357 is not usually one of the more belligerent ones.
And I am sorry if in the heat of responding to several frontal assaults I get mixed up.
Tell you what. I'll go back to some of those exch ...[text shortened]... et others know.
And you'll be a work in progress too.
Maybe I can learn more from you then.[/b]
I need to do more homework on the use of fear in conversion and I may start a thread.
To KJ: The check is in the mail.🙂
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Originally posted by Rajk999
Paul says Christians who defile themselves will be DESTROYED,
The passage under discussion says this:
"Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you.
If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, and such are you." (1 Cor. 3:16,17)
Each believer in the church in Corinth is individually a temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:19).
[b] "Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?" (19:6)
Collectively, all the believers in Corinth then are the temple of God as the local church.
How long does the believer have the Holy Spirit? Does he have the Holy Spirit on loan for a season until God destroys him? No. Each individual believer receives the Holy Spirit who will be with us FOREVER.
"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, THAT HE MAY BE WITH YOU ...FOREVER." (John 14:16)
So individually the believer has the Holy Spirit forever.
And collectively the practical church is the corporate temple of the Holy Spirit.
So the discipline of verse 17 - "God will destroy him" should not mean eternal punishment.
Otherwise you have to argue that one who has received the Holy Spirit forever goes WITH the Holy Spirit into eternal perdition.
In fact, a very CASE of what Paul is speaking to concerns a brother in Corinth who was practicing a most gross form of fornication.
"It is actually reported that there is fornication among you, and such fornication that does not even occur among the Gentiles, that someone has his stepmother. And you are puffed up? And have not rather mourned, that the one who has done this deed might be removed from your midst? " (1 Cor. 5:1,2)
In this condition this brother is not in any position to receive a reward at the judgment seat of Christ.
In this condition this brother's behavior is so corrosive that he should be removed from the fellowship of the local church. He should be quarantined.
Paul exercises apostolic authority to deliver this sinning one to Satan whom he is following for the DESTRUCTION of the flesh.
"In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you and my spirit have been assembled, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
To deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord." (vs. 4,5)
1.) Destruction of his old man, his flesh is discipline.
2.) This does not deprive him of the Holy Spirit Whom he has forever.
3.) This does separate him from the practical church gatherings until he repents.
The sad story has a positive ending. For in the Second Corinthian letter we see that the sorrowful brother repents of his fornication. He is received again into the fellowship of the church, having allowed Christ to sanctify him.
So in the very letter we come quite close to exactly what Paul taught in chapter 3.
"If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy and such are you."
The only difference is that this fornicating brother decided to take his judgment on THIS SIDE of the second coming of Christ. He judged himself after the church and the apostle set him out of the fellowship for reprimand.
He was certainly marring and defiling the holy temple of God, the local church in Corinth.
29 May 17
Originally posted by sonshipOh yeah .. I forgot, the Holy Spirit cannot be withdrawn .. Im so dumb.
Paul says Christians who defile themselves will be DESTROYED,
The passage under discussion says this:
[quote] [b] "Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you.
If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, and such are you." (1 Cor. 3 ...[text shortened]... .
He was certainly marring and defiling the holy temple of God, the local church in Corinth.