1. Standard memberRajk999
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    29 May '17 00:011 edit
    Apparently Sonship thinks so. He believes that anyone whose names are not written in the Book of Life is cast into the Lake of Fire, and they are tormented for all eternity.

    Jesus says in Rev 3, that Christian saints who do not defile themselves and who overcome, those names will not be blotted out of the book of life.

    So Christian saints who defile themselves and do not overcome, their names will be blotted out and they are going to face eternal torment.
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    29 May '17 00:39
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Apparently Sonship thinks so. He believes that anyone whose names are not written in the Book of Life is cast into the Lake of Fire, and they are tormented for all eternity.

    Jesus says in Rev 3, that Christian saints who do not defile themselves and who overcome, those names will not be blotted out of the book of life.

    So Christian saints who defile t ...[text shortened]... nd do not overcome, their names will be blotted out and they are going to face eternal torment.
    Your understanding of grace is defective.
  3. Standard memberRajk999
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    29 May '17 01:02
    Originally posted by josephw
    Your understanding of grace is defective.
    What is defective is your ability to discuss doctrines.
  4. Standard membersonship
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    29 May '17 11:01
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Alright, alright so we debate today. Perhaps some seeking person will get some benefit.
    May the Lord Jesus be exalted. He is the attraction.

    Apparently Sonship thinks so. He believes that anyone whose names are not written in the Book of Life is cast into the Lake of Fire, and they are tormented for all eternity.


    Revelation 20:15 is the source, not my invention. What does it say to us?

    "And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)


    What does the Bible say will happen to the person whose name is not written in the book of life ?

    So we debate today a little. May Jesus be the attracting magnet to draw all our hearts to Him.


    Jesus says in Rev 3, that Christian saints who do not defile themselves and who overcome, those names will not be blotted out of the book of life.


    This is correct. Here is what it says. This is a promise for the Lord not to do something, which surely implies that it is a possibility. The audience is "the church Sardis".


    " He who overcomes will be clothed thus, in white garments, and I shall by no means erase his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." (Rev. 3:5)


    There is therefore the possibility that I might have my name erased from the book of life.
    TEMPORARILY.

    During WHEN might a Christian have his name erased from the book of life ? Not in the age of eternity but in the 1,000 year long period PRECEDING that age, which we call the millennial kingdom.

    "A thousand years" - mentioned once - Revelation 20:2.
    "[T]he thousand years" - mentioned a second time - (20:3) .
    "[A] thousand years" - mentioned the third time - (20:4).
    "[T]he thousand years" - mentioned the fourth time - (20;5).
    "[A] thousand years" - mentioned the fifth time - (20:6).
    '[T]he thousand years" - mentioned the sixth time - (20:7)

    After this period of a thousand years for the millennial kingdom THEN the age of the eternal new heaven and new earth is mentioned.

    " And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

    And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea was no more.

    And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride for her husband." (Rev. 20:15 - 21:2)


    During the interim time of the thousand years various levels of reward and various levels of discipline will be administered to the saints who have been eternally redeemed.

    " If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation [Christ] remains, he will receive a reward.

    If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:14,15)


    To have your name temporarily erased from the book of life during the millennial kingdom is to surely "suffer loss". Though such a Christian will not receive that period's REWARD, after being perfected and disciplined his name will appear again in the book of life and "he himself will be SAVED".

    The scope of possibilities that lie within the warning - "suffer loss" are as wide and varied as whatever the Father needs to deal with His sons. All these dealings with His sons are however short of eternal perdition.


    So Christian saints who defile themselves and do not overcome, their names will be blotted out and they are going to face eternal torment.


    That is true for a temporary time. It will not last longer than one thousand years.

    Now we see that of the twelve tribes of Israel one tribe's name was erased from the list temporarily - the tribe of Dan for the defilement of their idolatry.

    In the listing of Revelation 7:1-8 and in First Chronicles 2 - 9 the tribe of Dan was omitted because of their falling into defiling idolatry (Judges 18:30-31; 1 Kings 12:29-30; 2 Kings 10:29; comp. Gen. 49:17) .

    However Dan will still be listed during the millennial kingdom. The temporary erasing of Dan from the list of twelve tribes is rectified when the listing includes that name pertaining to the millennial kingdom (Ezekiel 48:1). Jacob's blessing was upon him, so through the Lord's faithful salvation Dan is still included as one of the twelve tribes (Gen. 49:16-18) .

    Cont. below.
  5. Standard membersonship
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    29 May '17 11:122 edits
    Watchman Nee helped with this passage. The erasing of the name from the book of life is to get a mark beside the name, he taught.

    How Does the Blood Wash Us of Our Sins?
    (July 25)

    How does the blood wash us of our sins? When a sinner sins, there is the sin-record before the Lord. When a man believes in the Lord, his name is written in the book of life, and his sin-records before the Lord are erased. After a man believes in the Lord, his sins are removed before God by the blood of the Lord. Read Revelation 20:12, 15 and Matthew 12:36-37. The Bible says that one's name can be "erased" from the book of life (Rev. 3:5; Exo. 32:32; Psa. 69:28), but this kind of "erasing" is not eternal perdition. Once a believer's name is recorded in the book of life, it can never be removed. When he sins, his name receives a mark against it.


    [my bolding] http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=31BCEE6AD3

    According to the two passages we just quoted, it is possible for one's name to be removed from the book of life. Even the Scripture which we are considering now contains this meaning. Only the overcoming saints will not have their names erased from the book of life. This means that the defeated Christians will surely have their names erased. However, Revelation 20 tells us that at the judgment of the great white throne, all those whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. Does this therefore mean that a saved person can still perish? This is a hard point to understand. Those who believe in the possibility of perdition for believers will hold on to this verse. Those who do not believe in the believers' perdition will try to explain this verse with many concepts. But according to the teaching of the Bible, the problem here is the same as the one in 2:11. We believe that our explanation in 2:11 is fully scriptural. Every careful reader of the Bible has to agree that on the one hand, the Lord's sheep can never perish, but on the other hand, he cannot say that a sinning believer will never be punished. Hence, this, like other passages, refers to the temporary removal of the defeated believers' names from the book of life, particularly at the time when God rewards the overcomers in the millennium. At the end of the millennium, their names will be reinstated. Hence, by the time the last judgment comes (20:15), they will still be saved. When God first put the names there, it was out of grace. Although His calling and reward are without repentance, how can God tolerate the believers' sins and act contrary to His own nature? Those who believe in the Lord Jesus will be saved forever, but when God comes to reign over the world in righteousness, some will suffer punishment for the sins they commit after they are saved.


    http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=31B8E567DF
    [my bolding]
  6. Standard membersonship
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    29 May '17 11:292 edits
    Second Timothy 2:11-13 shows that REIGNING with Christ [in the millennial kingdom] is conditional upon enduring and being faithful. Christ will confess (at the commencement of the millennium) the names of the overcomers who endure in faithfulness during the church age.

    Though Christ may discipline the defeated Christian for his unfaitfhfulness and deny that Christian that reward, Christ CANNOT deny Himself. He is true to His eternal salvation though the defeated believer had to suffer loss of reward.

    "Faithful is the word: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him.
    If we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He also will deny us;

    If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." (2 Tim. 2:11-13)


    No man can pluck the sheep out of His hand so that they would perish forever. And He CANNOT deny Himself.

    In the millennial kingdom He may deny the defeated Christian the reward of reigning with Him over the earth. But "He remains faithful" in His eternal redemption. For He cannot deny Himself.
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    29 May '17 11:42
    Wow sonship, he really pressed your button with that one didn't he.
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    29 May '17 11:441 edit
    It's interesting to watch you two orbit each other while you fire your literalisms.

    Sonship do you believe that there is a literal "book" with pages and a spine and paper etc, as well as a literal "lake of fire" as well as a literal eternal hell?
  9. Standard memberKellyJay
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    29 May '17 11:46
    Originally posted by josephw
    Your understanding of grace is defective.
    Anyone whose name isn't written in that book doesn't belong to God, no different than
    those who do not have God's Spirit now in this life.
  10. Standard membersonship
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    29 May '17 11:51
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Wow sonship, he really pressed your button with that one didn't he.
    We've been over all this before.
    Recently, i looked a few years back to see what I posted.

    One sad thing is that some people are very slow to learn.
    At a virtual standstill really.
  11. Standard membersonship
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    29 May '17 12:122 edits
    Originally posted by divegeester
    It's interesting to watch you two orbit each other while you fire your literalisms.

    Sonship do you believe that there is a literal "book" with pages and a spine and paper etc, as well as a literal "lake of fire" as well as a literal eternal hell?
    Sonship do you believe that there is a literal "book" with pages and a spine and paper etc, as well as a literal "lake of fire" as well as a literal eternal hell?


    I don't feel that the physical characteristics of any "Lamb's book of life" need to be argued over strenuously.

    What is communicated is of the most importance.
    If I did retreat into chiefly metaphorical discussion about the nature of the book of life, it would not change the essential function of it.

    The same applies to the lake of fire. I don't think it is pertinent to debate the scientific characteristics of such a lake of fire. Launching into a near purely metaphorical explanation does NOTHING for me to remove the dread of such a destiny.

    Either hyper literal or hyper allegorical treatments of these two subjects don't seem to alter the clear presentation of their functions.

    There is nothing about a lake of fire that endears such a matter to us. It is to be avoided.
    There is nothing about not having your name in the book of life which is encouraging.

    The size, dimensions, binding, print type, page material of the book of life are not important.

    The temperature, humidity, depth, location, geographic details or any other scientific characteristics of the lake of fire are not [edited] that important. We want to be saved from it.

    Having said that I will throw in two cents worth of some speculation.

    Prophesy in the Bible is usual details only in part. When the final matter comes about it is usually what was foretold, then some. Perhaps what we are told is not the bulk untold portion which remains to be revealed.

    I might speculate that such a lake of fire may include a lava flow of some sort plus whatever else natural or supernatural God will use to judge.

    Maybe just the tip of the iceberg we are told. We could compare to the prophesies of Christ's coming the first time. He fulfilled them but much more accompanied along.

    Is there anything pleasant about the lake of fire?
    Will any amount of allegorizing make the lake of fire less of a horrible nightmare ?
  12. SubscriberFMF
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    29 May '17 12:23
    Originally posted by sonship
    Is there anything pleasant about the lake of fire? Will any amount of allegorizing make the lake of fire less of a horrible nightmare ?
    It's not "a horrible nightmare" to people who don't have any reason to think it exists.
  13. Standard membersonship
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    29 May '17 12:331 edit
    Back to Jesus.

    Joseph I think was right that Rajk999 does not understand the Grace of the new covenant. But neither does he seem to understand the righteousness of God either.

    By being put into Christ He has been made to the believer righteousness. The believer having Christ wrought into her or him has been made the righteousness of God in Christ.

    That is what the New Testament says. The believer does not have the righteousness of Christ. We who are eternally redeemed have Christ as righteousness.

    To commence the Christian life the believer should learn from the outset to stand boldly and firmly upon this revelation

    "Him who did not know sin He made sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." (2 Cor. 5:21)


    God does not want you to grovel and beg. He does want you to BELIEVE. And it would please Him for you to pray -

    "I am the righteousness of God. I have been justified. God is righteous and I am too. I am the righteousness of God in Christ. I am fully identified with the Justifier. I am in Christ. I approve God and He approves me. God and I mutually approve one another."


    To the one who believes into Jesus Christ - Christ has been made to that one RIGHTEOUSNESS. So says the Apostle Paul.

    "But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who has become wisdom to us from God; both righteousness and sanctification and redemption,

    That as it is written, He who boasts, let him boast in the Lord." ( 1 Cor. 1:20,31)


    For God to put Christ into you and to put you into Christ is to possess Christ as righteousness. God looks upon the believer and sees His perfect One the Righteous Son of God.

    None of this means God cannot perfect, educate, reward or discipline His sons.
    In fact this is a good beginning to a life of cooperation with the perfecting Father.
  14. Standard memberRajk999
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    29 May '17 12:48
    Originally posted by sonship
    We've been over all this before.
    Recently, i looked a few years back to see what I posted.

    One sad thing is that some people are very slow to learn.
    At a virtual standstill really.
    You cannot fool everybody with your nonsense doctrine.
  15. Standard memberRajk999
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    29 May '17 12:49
    Originally posted by divegeester
    It's interesting to watch you two orbit each other while you fire your literalisms.

    Sonship do you believe that there is a literal "book" with pages and a spine and paper etc, as well as a literal "lake of fire" as well as a literal eternal hell?
    Some is literal and some is not. Its all up to his whim and fancy.
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