07 Jan '19 10:32>
@wolfgang59 saidAnthropology. Psychology. Couple of examples.
It does.
Science is interested in the phenomenon of religion (for instance).
It is studied.
@wolfgang59 saidAnthropology. Psychology. Couple of examples.
It does.
Science is interested in the phenomenon of religion (for instance).
It is studied.
@fmf saidGod is the cause for the existence of everything, therefore everything that exists inherently evidences its creator.
You are coming across as insecure in your faith and evidently feel the need to try to hijack the idea of "science" to bolster your assertions about supernatural causality.
@secondson saidYou and KellyJay are free to believe and have faith in what you want in this regard but there is no need to try to hijack the idea of "science" to bolster the assertions that are based on your faith.
God is the cause for the existence of everything, therefore everything that exists inherently evidences its creator.
To think or say otherwise is irrational.
The universe is clearly seen by everyone.
@kellyjay saidAt best Kelly, 'the whole universe' could be tendered as evidence for 'a' God. I think you will struggle to link it directly to your particular God of worship, to the exclusion of all other creation gods from other world religions.
Since I believe the whole universe is evidence for God I see no lack of it.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidWhen I have tried to raise this obvious implication of belief in a creator being with KellyJay he has invariably assumed a completely partisan discursive foetal position.
At best Kelly, 'the whole universe' could be tendered as evidence for 'a' God. I think you will struggle to link it directly to your particular God of worship, to the exclusion of all other creation gods from other world religions.
@secondson saidI think you are putting the cart before the horse there sir. It would indeed be true that 'everything that exists inherently evidences its creator'. First however you have to establish that:
God is the cause for the existence of everything, therefore everything that exists inherently evidences its creator.
To think or say otherwise is irrational.
The universe is clearly seen by everyone.
@kellyjay saidWhat "process," what "instructions," do you have in mind? Assembling a piece of IKEA furniture? Sure, there is design in such a case.
When you see instructions guiding process you think this is mindless?
@kellyjay saidYou use the word "evidence" in a manner inconsistent with scientific procedure. It certainly isn't the sort of evidence which would stand up in court (not since the Salem witch trial, anyway).
Since I believe the whole universe is evidence for God I see no lack of it.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidYou do error sir in assuming I'm applying the term 'irrational' to you or anyone else in particular, with the exception of ToO.
I think you are putting the cart before the horse there sir. It would indeed be true that 'everything that exists inherently evidences its creator'. First however you have to establish that:
1. A creator actually exists. (And is hence the 'cause' you speak of).
2. This creator is 'your' God, and not say the creator God of Hinduism.
The universe is indeed 'seen b ...[text shortened]... e majority of conversations I have with theists, but refrain from doing so for the sake of dialogue.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidWould the term "unreasonable" be more palatable? 🙂
And I'd ask you please not to play the 'irrational' card. I would feel equally justified to play that card in the majority of conversations I have with theists, but refrain from doing so for the sake of dialogue.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidThe debate about which God created the universe will be made once it is established that the universe was created.
I think you are putting the cart before the horse there sir. It would indeed be true that 'everything that exists inherently evidences its creator'. First however you have to establish that:
1. A creator actually exists. (And is hence the 'cause' you speak of).
2. This creator is 'your' God, and not say the creator God of Hinduism.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidThat is correct. This we can agree on. We do see the universe, but not God.
The universe is indeed 'seen by everyone' but the 'creator' is not, and no logical link has been provided by you between the two. Indeed, an eternal universe is far more probable and negates the need completely for a divine creator.
@secondson said"No one ever had the slightest success explaining existence." Emerson
You do error sir in assuming I'm applying the term 'irrational' to you or anyone else in particular, with the exception of ToO.
No. What I'm saying is this; that the very existence of the universe itself, whether it be infinite or not, evidences a creator, that thinking the universe exists without a creator is irrational in that specific sense.
All of us here are rati ...[text shortened]... ry remark directed at a person, but at an idea. I'm looking at this from strictly an objective view.
@secondson saidThe problem with appealing to a creator to explain existence is that it does not explain anything; it replaces one mystery by an even greater one. If a theist wants to claim that God is self-explanatory, necessarily existent, and requires no further reason or cause to exist, then a philosopher can just as well make the same claims about existence: that it is self-explanatory, necessarily existent, and requires no further reason or cause to exist. Applying Occham's Razor, we should stop at the first unexplained visible mystery instead of compounding it with another unexplained invisible mystery.
That is correct. This we can agree on. We do see the universe, but not God.
Logic then dictates, if a creator exists, but is unseen, He therefore must be invisible.
There one is standing on the earth looking out at an unfathomable array of stars and galaxies stretching as far as the imagination can allow, but sees only matter.
Frankly, I don't think there's a man made argument that can fix that.
Psalm 19