Can we love what we fear?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Well that's a pretty bleak god you have there.
And you are so sure about your interpretation that you leave no room for error, for a possible correction.
Needless to say I disagree, but even if you were 100% right, I still don't see that as a motivating factor that may make me change my mind about Christianity.

I don't see it that way.

Evil and sin dominate the human experience, Satan has deceived us hands down and has
brought us to a place many of us hate and condemn others for the very things they do! We
are so flawed, and a large portion of us don't think there is anything wrong. They can look
at the bombings, the murders, the rapes, the hate mongering, all of the lying, and even
support some of it if its colored right in the news.

We break laws, we break oaths, we with hold good from others, we put others down, we
call each other names, we get angry over big and little things, we betray trust, we lust in
our hearts, we do countless things we condemn others for. Still, God wants to save us,
He wants to redeem us, and He made away for us all to be saved, ever single one no
matter how bad we were, and did it in such away that it cannot be bought, or earned by
our own effort. We go to Him, He becomes our Lord, we receive His Spirit and start our
walk with Him in Christ.

If you don't think you are that bad that need saving, well...I guess Jesus isn't for you, but
that is a judgment call on your part. As I see it we are all moving to a place that will end us
because we will die in our sins, Jesus is our lifeboat. When the Titanic went down it was
not the lack of lifeboats that killed people it was the cold water, there were not enough
lifeboats which made that horrific sinking so bad. With sin and Jesus we are all able to
come to God, but some don't want too so they will end up going where they are going
even though there is a safe way to go.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I don't see it that way.

Evil and sin dominate the human experience, Satan has deceived us hands down and has
brought us to a place many of us hate and condemn others for the very things they do! We
are so flawed, and a large portion of us don't think there is anything wrong. They can look
at the bombings, the murders, the rapes, the hate mongering, a ...[text shortened]... want too so they will end up going where they are going
even though there is a safe way to go.

A judgment call on my part indeed. Who else is going to evaluate my life eh? lol

"Evil and sin dominate the human experience.."
We always get off on the wrong foot. what I mean is that you always seem to want to emphasize the negative, no matter how small it may be.
Yes small. The world is waking up. Waking up to positivity and potential.

The world is getting better. Crime is on the decline . The old and ignorant will die out and we will have to retain the lessons of the past if we are to progress humanity.
No amount of faith on Jesus will change much. Actions speak louder.

I really don't see how hell could be worse than life on Earth in the here and now. It is only ignorance that keeps us from knowing the bitter awful truth of reality.
As we educate ourselves in the 'ways of the world' we become more in tune with what is really going on. It's daunting. I can see why people just want to be saved without really wanting to know more about the world, about other people and cultures. But that's the lesson for us. To understand that which is different from ourselves. We have been given a chance to learn on this beautiful planet. I for one am taking up the challenge.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
A judgment call on my part indeed. Who else is going to evaluate my life eh? lol

"Evil and sin dominate the human experience.."
We always get off on the wrong foot. what I mean is that you always seem to want to emphasize the negative, no matter how small it may be.
Yes small. The world is waking up. Waking up to positivity and potential.

The wo ...[text shortened]... are to progress humanity.
No amount of faith on Jesus will change much. Actions speak louder.

Just as water will not rise above its source neither will mankind. I get that we want to say
we are not that bad, but how are we judging that, except by looking at each other. If the
best of us are flawed, then what about the rest?

Evil and sin, are part of the human condition, and there is only one way to rid ourselves of
that sinful nature that is evil, if we avoid that help, that salvation, where does that leave
us?

It is our sinful condition that will do us in, if you reject that we are that bad than I guess
you do not feel the need for salvation before God.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Just as water will not rise above its source neither will mankind. I get that we want to say
we are not that bad, but how are we judging that, except by looking at each other. If the
best of us are flawed, then what about the rest?

Evil and sin, are part of the human condition, and there is only one way to rid ourselves of
that sinful nature that is e ...[text shortened]... you reject that we are that bad than I guess
you do not feel the need for salvation before God.

How do you know there is only one way to rid ourselves of sin?

I'm not just saying we are not bad, I am saying we are bloody excellent!!
Deep down that is.

This 'flawed perfection' is all we need.
"Best of us are flawed, then what about the rest? " . Umm they are not flawed ??

You gotta understand that I am not here (on this planet) to rehash history and make people pay for their wicked ways. No. I am here to move into the future with grace, absolving all past misgivings.
I would like humanity to move forward, to evolve in a spiritual sense.

I don't think we will do ourselves in. We are already in a pickle in this mortal state. The fact that people like you look at spirituality in such a one dimensional fashion is a huge challenge to the many knowledgable, thinking people in the world, who realize that there is more to life than acknowledging Jesus.
We realize that uniqueness and individuality of all people and unless they harm others , they should be left free to pursue (or not) spirituality in their own way. While at the same time recognizing that no one way is better than another.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
How do you know there is only one way to rid ourselves of sin?

I'm not just saying we are not bad, I am saying we are bloody excellent!!
Deep down that is.

This 'flawed perfection' is all we need.
"Best of us are flawed, then what about the rest? " . Umm they are not flawed ??

You gotta understand that I am not here (on this planet) to reha ...[text shortened]... ity in their own way. While at the same time recognizing that no one way is better than another.

I look at it this way, God created the universe and knows everything there is about us, if
anyone knows how to deal with someone with the will to do good and evil it is Him. He
also knows the enemy of our souls better than we do *that is not another human*, and He
knows what the enemy can and will do. The majority of us don't see anything about this
as an issue whatsoever, they don't think they need or want saving.

So we are in the middle, God and Satan, it isn't a contest of will Satan loses, it isn't a
contest of strength Satan loses, it isn't a contest at all really since no matter how Satan
rebels he loses. Where the struggle is, is within man, we oppose ourselves at times, and
we oppose each other too. God will not force Himself upon anyone, He gives us the
ability to do what we will here and still blesses us with air, sunshine, children, jobs, and
so on if we are grateful or not.

So in the middle of a world where Satan is the god of it, there are people who can if they
so desire come up with a million ways to prop themselves up, to make themselves feel
better when they look at the guy next to them, there is Jesus. Jesus the Word of God who
became one of us, destroys sin in our nature by giving us His Spirit, something we could
not do on our own. He also dispels any notion that we can be good enough on our own,
or we can earn it by our efforts, through God's love for us we are saved not by our own
plans, efforts, or righteousness. We are saved by God's grace through faith that God gives
us, we do not earn it, so we can receive His Spirit and follow Him, getting to know Him
now, not in some by and by.

If you think you are not that bad, to what are comparing us too? What is it about a race
that does the things we do, doesn't show you we are flawed.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I really don't see how hell could be worse than life on Earth in the here and now. It is only ignorance that keeps us from knowing the bitter awful truth of reality.
As we educate ourselves in the 'ways of the world' we become more in tune with what is really going on. It's daunting. I can see why people just want to be saved without really wanting to ...[text shortened]... ave been given a chance to learn on this beautiful planet. I for one am taking up the challenge.

I was thinking about our conversation and I think the bottom line to this is are we a good people being put upon by an evil creator, or a bad people being saved by a good God?

Originally posted by KellyJay
I was thinking about our conversation and I think the bottom line to this is

are we a good people being put upon by an evil creator,

or a bad people being saved by a good God?

I think there are both good and bad people and some seek to promote their ideologies in public with simplistic false dilemmas..

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm more than likely hands down the very worst one here on talking about the dangers of
Hell. I'm not sure which one Jesus talked about more, Heaven, the Kingdom of God, or
Hell, the weeping and gnashing of teeth, but I know He covered both topics.

Since there isn't a single person here I want to see in Hell, I think sharing about the grace
and love o ...[text shortened]... favors by only sharing the pretty in pink stuff, and not warning all
about the dangers as well.

Back in the middle ages the noble goal of saving souls was sometimes pursued by ruining the body of the unfaithful. Something very like it is seen today. There's nothing like that going to happen on this chess site forum but the warnings can still be spelled out in as much detail as the TOS allow. Those of you who do this are, so far, more moderate and self-restrained than you could be. But it is in the imagination of a vulnerable person, where the warning may fester.

It can become quite an obscene collection of thoughts, once the seed is planted. But you don't have to live with it.

I have repeatedly said that I'm in that category of non-theist who, when I introspect on the existence of God, find no belief. God is for me an explanatory concept that varies from person to person.That's not an opinion about God existing or not, it's a simple report of having belief or not.

So does that make me a target? If so, I have a solution available.

Originally posted by FMF
I think there are both good and bad people and some seek to promote their ideologies in public with simplistic false dilemmas..

It's really not that complicated.

Trump bad, everyone else, good.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I was thinking about our conversation and I think the bottom line to this is are we a good people being put upon by an evil creator, or a bad people being saved by a good God?

It's hard to say.
The world seems way more complex than that simple analogy, but then again to boil things down to simple analogies like that makes it easier to comprehend certain issues.

Truth be told I think it could go either way. The world I mean . It could get much much worse or it may hold and gradually become better.

Originally posted by JS357
Back in the middle ages the noble goal of saving souls was sometimes pursued by ruining the body of the unfaithful. Something very like it is seen today. There's nothing like that going to happen on this chess site forum but the warnings can still be spelled out in as much detail as the TOS allow. Those of you who do this are, so far, more moderate and self-re ...[text shortened]... t of having belief or not.

So does that make me a target? If so, I have a solution available.

I'm not trying to push anyone's buttons to drag them down, instead lift them up. For me
the bottom line in this conversation is that there is a sure foundation we can go to with
our fears, our guilt, and anything that is pressing against us, because there is a God who
cares for us.

With respect to who may be vulnerable, unless there is some way of knowing what
someone is going through who I have never met, and who may not even write, but only
read here, what can be done? Conversations here have been very harsh, I've been
pushed very hard by people making false claims against me that have been very
offensive and caused me to a lot of pain. It happens, we cannot escape that here or
anywhere else, so what do you suggest, taboo some topics you think may be harmful. If
so please produce a list I would like to see it.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
It's hard to say.
The world seems way more complex than that simple analogy, but then again to boil things down to simple analogies like that makes it easier to comprehend certain issues.

Truth be told I think it could go either way. The world I mean . It could get much much worse or it may hold and gradually become better.

I'll watch it with you, and let me know what you think.

Originally posted by whodey
It's really not that complicated.

Trump bad, everyone else, good.

You are one of this web site's leading purveyors of false dilemmas.

Originally posted by FMF
You are one of this web site's leading purveyors of false dilemmas.

And you are one of this sites biggest trolls.

I reckon we both win a cookie. 😵