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    30 May '17 14:563 edits
    I mentioned I would look into the issue of fear and religion. So far, considering the question asked in this thread's title, and in the following cite, seems most likely to be fruitful.

    http://www.askrealjesus.com/how-we-can-help-jesus/75-help-jesus/897-did-jesus-come-to-start-a-fear-based-religion

    (Edit: I hope you don't get hung up by the 'mystical' references on the cited article.)

    Can we love what we fear?

    Can you? In daily life, the idea that we love what we fear is associated with statements made by those who are in an emotionally and/or physically abusive relationship. In religion, I am considering the possibility that many once-Christian non-theists are people who cannot reconcile the idea of loving what -- or Who --they fear. Not able to feel genuine love, they walk away, sometimes with the bitterness of a break-up.

    What say you?
  2. Standard memberchaney3
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    30 May '17 15:03
    Originally posted by JS357
    I mentioned I would look into the issue of fear and religion. So far, considering the question asked in this thread's title, and in the following cite, seems most likely to be fruitful.

    http://www.askrealjesus.com/how-we-can-help-jesus/75-help-jesus/897-did-jesus-come-to-start-a-fear-based-religion

    Can we love what we fear?

    Can you? In daily life, the ...[text shortened]... feel genuine love, they walk away, sometimes with the bitterness of a break-up.

    What say you?
    There is certainly a problem if Jesus died on the cross, but follows that with a statement like...."believe that it happened or you will be in hell for eternity".

    It seems that such a sacrifice of love would not contain such a demand. Maybe we've got it all wrong?
  3. SubscriberFMF
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    30 May '17 15:10
    Originally posted by JS357
    What say you?
    The emotional contortions experienced and adopted by women who are victims of physically abusive husbands (and yet "love" them nevertheless) would be a dark area of the human condition to look at in order to try to understand the psychology of the torturer god ideology.
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    30 May '17 15:521 edit
    Machiavelli once asked if it was better to be loved or be feared. I say both. I don't believe the two are mutually exclusive.

    I think most children fear their parents to some degree, and if the truth be known, their parents probably could probably say the same about their offspring if they were honest about it.
  5. SubscriberFMF
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    30 May '17 15:59
    Originally posted by whodey
    I think most children fear their parents to some degree,
    Two questions come to mind: [1] Would you support the authorities taking children into care if it was found that the parents were threatening to actually burn them in an incinerator for being naughty? [2] If you met a child who had been beaten systematically, had broken and rebroken bones, cigarette burns etc. and it was clearly distraught and traumatized ~ and it insisted that it "loved" the father who'd abused the child and made it fear for its life, how would you characterize that "love"?
  6. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    30 May '17 16:27
    Originally posted by JS357
    I mentioned I would look into the issue of fear and religion. So far, considering the question asked in this thread's title, and in the following cite, seems most likely to be fruitful.

    http://www.askrealjesus.com/how-we-can-help-jesus/75-help-jesus/897-did-jesus-come-to-start-a-fear-based-religion

    (Edit: I hope you don't get hung up by the 'mystical' re ...[text shortened]... feel genuine love, they walk away, sometimes with the bitterness of a break-up.

    What say you?
    In my personal history I have certainly loved and feared the same person. The problem for me is when we try and include the word 'respect.' - I do not believe it is possible to love, fear and respect the same individual.

    Christianity seems to require us to do so:

    'And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.' (Deuteronomy 10:12).
  7. Joined
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    30 May '17 17:001 edit
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    In my personal history I have certainly loved and feared the same person. The problem for me is when we try and include the word 'respect.' - I do not believe it is possible to love, fear and respect the same individual.

    Christianity seems to require us to do so:

    'And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord you ...[text shortened]... m, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.' (Deuteronomy 10:12).
    The NT seems to address this issue:

    1 John 4: 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

    It strikes me that this OT v. NT dichotomy contrasts the matter pretty well.
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    30 May '17 17:201 edit
    Originally posted by FMF
    Two questions come to mind: [1] Would you support the authorities taking children into care if it was found that the parents were threatening to actually burn them in an incinerator for being naughty? [2] If you met a child who had been beaten systematically, had broken and rebroken bones, cigarette burns etc. and it was clearly distraught and traumatized ~ and ...[text shortened]... er who'd abused the child and made it fear for its life, how would you characterize that "love"?
    That is fear that is not mixed with love.

    Obviously the children need to be saved from such situations. It pains me to see children go to the state where they usually are deprived of love as well.
  9. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    30 May '17 17:57
    Originally posted by JS357
    The NT seems to address this issue:

    1 John 4: 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

    It strikes me that this OT v. NT dichotomy contrasts the matter pretty well.
    Indeed. The OT asks us to love and fear God, while the NT tells us there is no room for fear in love. I'm sure Sonship will pop along to explain away the contradiction.

    Can we truly respect a deity who is not content with acquiring perfect love, but also wants us to fear Him?
  10. Standard memberKellyJay
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    30 May '17 23:11
    Originally posted by JS357
    The NT seems to address this issue:

    1 John 4: 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

    It strikes me that this OT v. NT dichotomy contrasts the matter pretty well.
    The thing is we are sinners, God is Holy. As we are walking with God learning about Him,
    following His lead, there isn't any fear. While we following the flesh, vacillating between
    doing what we know we should and shouldn't there is without a doubt fear.

    Jesus prayed that we would be one with Him and the Father, there isn't any fear there.
    The closer to God, perfect love casteth out fear.
  11. Standard memberKellyJay
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    30 May '17 23:13
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    Indeed. The OT asks us to love and fear God, while the NT tells us there is no room for fear in love. I'm sure Sonship will pop along to explain away the contradiction.

    Can we truly respect a deity who is not content with acquiring perfect love, but also wants us to fear Him?
    God through the OT setup the NT, the only difference there is the covenant between God
    and man.
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    30 May '17 23:154 edits
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    Indeed. The OT asks us to love and fear God, while the NT tells us there is no room for fear in love. I'm sure Sonship will pop along to explain away the contradiction.

    Can we truly respect a deity who is not content with acquiring perfect love, but also wants us to fear Him?
    My initial interest in this was noticing how much it bothers me that some Christians attempt to induce fear in non-Christians - fear of torment and suffering that may be coming the latter's way after they die.

    There are writings on the internet that attempt to resolve the OT/NT issue on fear and love, writings that are satisfactory to the writers and to Christian readers. So Sonship can take a rest.

    So my question - can we love what we fear - does not make much of a ripple here from a Biblical pov. This is because one of the (usually unspoken) premises in any defense of the Bible is that it is free of error if properly understood. And this issue is old news.

    So we can turn to a psychological harm pov, arguing that preying upon a vulnerable person's fears is harmful to the person. But that is met by the counter argument that preventing the harm that awaits the unsaved justifies the use of fears of hell etc.

    So there we are.
  13. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    30 May '17 23:25
    Like all things, I think this comes back to self knowledge.
    If you are confident in your 'life path' and have some grip on the truth of things, then there should be no problem in being able to love what you may fear.
    If you think that life is about who's got the biggest ego and who can do one upmanship better, then no amount of bluster will prepare you for something that's really scary.

    Another way to put this is: If you recognize your connection with all things then your empathy towards all things will prevail and you will understand that fear is only a reaction on your part, as per your conditioning (thus far) . If you see separation (from others, from nature ,etc. ), then your mind may well induce fear where none is called for.

    I find it funny how Christians reconcile their faith by saying that their god should be loved and feared. Talk about contradictions.
  14. Standard memberKellyJay
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    30 May '17 23:321 edit
    Originally posted by JS357
    My initial interest in this was noticing how much it bothers me that some Christians attempt to induce fear in non-Christians - fear of torment and suffering that may be coming the latter's way after they die.

    There are writings on the internet that attempt to resolve the OT/NT issue on fear and love, writings that are satisfactory to the writers and to Chr ...[text shortened]... ing the harm that awaits the unsaved justifies the use of fears of hell etc.

    So there we are.
    I'm more than likely hands down the very worst one here on talking about the dangers of
    Hell. I'm not sure which one Jesus talked about more, Heaven, the Kingdom of God, or
    Hell, the weeping and gnashing of teeth, but I know He covered both topics.

    Since there isn't a single person here I want to see in Hell, I think sharing about the grace
    and love of God is important, it was what got me looking to God, but at the same I don't
    think I doing anyone any favors by only sharing the pretty in pink stuff, and not warning all
    about the dangers as well.
  15. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    30 May '17 23:45
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I'm more than likely hands down the very worst one here on talking about the dangers of
    Hell. I'm not sure which one Jesus talked about more, Heaven, the Kingdom of God, or
    Hell, the weeping and gnashing of teeth, but I know He covered both topics.

    Since there isn't a single person here I want to see in Hell, I think sharing about the grace
    and love o ...[text shortened]... favors by only sharing the pretty in pink stuff, and not warning all
    about the dangers as well.
    Well that's a pretty bleak god you have there.
    And you are so sure about your interpretation that you leave no room for error, for a possible correction.
    Needless to say I disagree, but even if you were 100% right, I still don't see that as a motivating factor that may make me change my mind about Christianity.
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