Originally posted by FMF
Ten years? Twenty years? Twenty five years? What's you best guess?

Did your pessimistic outlook predate and find vindication in your religious beliefs, or did your religious beliefs give rise to your pessimistic outlook?

A classic example of you letting your disagreement judge what was said. In your rush to label him "incoherent.", you put words in his mouth. An acknowledgement of end-time prophecy does not necessitate a "pessimistic outlook", neither does he show evidence of such. But don't let that get in the way of your "attack mode".

Originally posted by FMF
In reply to the same point by me a couple of years ago, galveston75 asked me if I'd not seen a YouTube clip of a granny being robbed on a bus, and if I had, how could I possibly think the world was getting better for literally billions of people.

And you'll probably maintain this fantasy (that the world is just getting "better" ) right through the day the authorities come and drag your neighbor away for not worshipping the AntiChrist. Of course they won't be after you.

Originally posted by FMF
roigam, once again, if I may ask: did your pessimistic outlook predate and find vindication in your adopted religious beliefs, or did your religious beliefs give rise to your pessimistic outlook?

And again, he has no "pessimistic outlook". That's your "incoherent" label.

The post that was quoted here has been removed

However you care to "package" it (genocide, murder, psychopathy), God does not sin. Those judgements are for man, not God.

And I do not know how many times I have to say it, but those "terrible crimes" you attribute to Christians are laid at the feet of evil men. Period. And to paint God with this brush is wildly ineffectual among thinking Christians. Man sins. God does not.

Originally posted by Suzianne
An acknowledgement of end-time prophecy does not necessitate a "pessimistic outlook", neither does he show evidence of such. But don't let that get in the way of your "attack mode".

I think it does necessitate a "pessimistic outlook". That is why I framed the question the way I did. I am expressing my opinions on this topic ~ not yours, Suzianne ~ and I am discussing them with someone whose opinions are very different than mine. He is free to claim that he is not pessimistic or that he never has been if he wants.

Originally posted by Suzianne
And you'll probably maintain this fantasy (that the world is just getting "better" ) right through the day the authorities come and drag your neighbor away for not worshipping the AntiChrist. Of course they won't be after you.

And you believe my neighbour will be dragged away for this reason during your lifetime, is that right?

Originally posted by Suzianne
I know it may seem to you that someone disagreeing with you can be labeled "incoherent" but thank goodness, you're not the last man left on the planet.

Do you think sonship's version of your God figure, which is a vengeful, wrathful one and who punishes unbelievers with eternal unending torment or torture, is a coherent description of the "loving" and "merciful" God you worship?

Originally posted by roigam
My wife and I were doing as well as we could but life kept going downhill.
It motivated us to find out why.
The answers we found are the same practical answers all can find and prove out for themselves.....
If they give it a serious chance.
I was always optimistic and thought good of all but now I know that all are not good.
I'm very hopeful for the fut ...[text shortened]... of life for man and bring in a rightful rulership and its many blessings for all who want them.

I'm sorry you found your life going downhill. I support your right to turn to religion in your efforts to cope and find solace amidst your difficulties. When do you see the end of the world (as we know it) happening? Ten years from now? Twenty years? Twenty five years? What would be your best guess, bearing in mind the "100K refugees" you mentioned?

Originally posted by Suzianne
And again, he has no "pessimistic outlook". That's your "incoherent" label.

To my way of thinking.... the world is about to end because everything is so bad and humans are so awful (or words to that effect) is most certainly "pessimistic". What's more I think it's a view that is defeatist, and even misanthropic.

This is my view and it informs my interactions with all manner of people whose jaundiced myopia has either driven them toward doomsday-centric religious beliefs or whose religious beliefs have turned them into pessimistic or even neurotic people.

Originally posted by FMF
Cut to the chase sonship. Why would someone be punished vengefully by a wrathful supernatural being for eternity for being a non-believer? If there's any sense in it, please say what it is.

Probably because of perpetual sinning there will be never ending punishment. I have stated this before.

At any rate one should not be so curious as to remain unreconciled to God in order to see why.

If truth is thought of as light wattage, some people may regard the last judgment as a 100 watt bulb shinning in a dark room. I regard this as a vastly underestimated comparison.

I expect that the last judgment will be more like a 10,000,000 watt bulb shinning on every corner of this world's dark corners. God will mistakenly overlook nothing, be mistaken about nothing, fail to account for nothing, and be in error about nothing. That is absolute disclosure bathed in absolute LIGHT.

Probably even where one blamed himself falsely, God will reveal the truth that one was perhaps not to blame. He knows all the facts. And where one thought he was innocent God's pure absolute light will expose the truth in one's innermost motives.

There simply will be no argument left to any being. PERIOD.
It is better by far to trust God's salvation in Christ and bring all of your sins under the redeeming blood of Christ.

But why eternal punishment follows limited temporal sin? I don't think that is the case. I think the unbeliever is frozen in a state of perpetual sinning which will probably call forth perpetual punishment.

It is better to trust the redemptive work of Christ and not miss the sheer eternal enjoyment of God's eternal purpose.

Originally posted by sonship
Probably because of perpetual sinning there will be never ending punishment. I have stated this before..

Perpetual punishment for not believing something? Where's the moral coherence in that?

Originally posted by Suzianne
A classic example of you letting your disagreement judge what was said. In your rush to label him "incoherent.", you put words in his mouth. An acknowledgement of end-time prophecy does not necessitate a "pessimistic outlook", neither does he show evidence of such. But don't let that get in the way of your "attack mode".

Is part of the end-times not billions upon billions of people going to hell? You of course will go to heaven, but oh, so many people will be send to hell, right?

You don't see that as something negative? You consider the day that happens to be a positive one?

Originally posted by FMF

[b]Perpetual punishment for not believing something? Where's the moral coherence in that?
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I take it as punishment for BELIEVING something. That is believing that one can get away with not being reconciled to a holy God Who is eternally the Righteous Judge and final Governor of all being.

I take it as punishment for BELIEVING that God will allow transgression against His law to go on at the sinner's whim with no thought of need to be forgiven by God.

It is perishing because of believing ... "God didn't see. God doesn't know. God will not call for an accounting. God doesn't care. God doesn't even exist."

It is perishing for believing these lies of Satan who knows where he is going and is hell bent on not going alone.

Originally posted by sonship
I take it as punishment for BELIEVING something. That is believing that one can get away with not being reconciled to a holy God Who is eternally the Righteous Judge and final Governor of all being.

I don't believe any of this this stuff you claim .about "holy God Who is eternally the Righteous Judge and final Governor of all being".

I just don't believe it. I can't choose to believe it. I can't simply decide to believe it. And I can't even pretend to believe it. I've considered it, and I've concluded that its unbelievable and not credible.

I don't believe for one moment I am ~ as you claim ~ trying to 'get away' with something in the eyes of some supernatural being. Why? Because I don't recognize any truth in your portrayal of or the supposed nature of this supernatural being you imagine. I just don't think any of your assertions about me needing to be "reconciled" with your God figure. I do not share your superstition. I am being utterly honest and sincere with you.

In sum, I have different beliefs from you. And what's your ideology of "perfect justice" when it comes to what you claim is a morally coherent "punishment" for my inability to endorse the superstitions you propagate as truth? Ah yes. Eternal torture. It's morally nonsensical, sonship. Morally speaking it just does not make any sense and I do not fully understand why you ~ a free moral agent ~ subscribe to it.