Spirituality
02 Jun 08
12 Jun 08
[i]Originally posted by ThinkOfOne[/ToO--I'm not trying to be a smartass or anything, but that ol' reliable verse, John 3:16 comes to mind almost immediately, as well as 17 and 18. "He that believeth on him is not condemned", and "whosoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life." Then of course, there's the thief on the cross, who neither professed NOR followed any commandments(not recorded anyway--I suppose we can't read his true heart)--yet he is in heaven.
I asked for the following:
Where does Jesus explicitly state that if an individual professes belief that Jesus died for everyones sins, that individual will be granted salvation?
Please provide the chapters and verses.
Then there's John 11:26--Jesus said that whosoever believeth in me shall never die. And John 5:24 says flat out that those who hear Jesus' words and "believeth on Him that sent Me" has everlasting life, and shall not come under condemnation.
I'm no Biblical scholar,and most of what I believe in is like everyone else: I heard it in various sermons and Sunday Schools, I accepted it as the truth and I find comfort in the words. I know there are plenty of verses that stress works--my pastor for one claims one must not only "believe" but "believe and be baptized", because there's a verse that says so. As I said, I am not a theologian, and I have come to respect you. It just that some verses do seem contradictory, and in my belief system, the discrepency lies not with Jesus, but with our limited ability to grasp all the meaning from His word.
12 Jun 08
4 edits
Originally posted by PinkFloydWhat does it mean to "believe"? If a man says that he believes in fidelity in marriage, but cheats on his wife, do you think he really believes in it? I don't. I think he just likes to think he does and/or likes others to think he does. There are several places where Jesus explicitly states a requirement that one follow Him/His word/His commandments/the will of God, etc. A question I have is this: Why have a conception of Jesus that has Him talking out both sides of His mouth when it is unnecessary? If one truly believes in Jesus, wouldn't one follow His word?
ToO--I'm not trying to be a smartass or anything, but that ol' reliable verse, John 3:16 comes to mind almost immediately, as well as 17 and 18. "He that believeth on him is not condemned", and "whosoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life." Then of course, there's the thief on the cross, who neither professed NOR followed any commandments(not th Jesus, but with our limited ability to grasp all the meaning from His word.
"Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord', yet you don't do what I tell you?"
It still amazes me that there are so many who jump all over me for advocating following the teachings of Jesus.
Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever"
12 Jun 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThere is a difference between a man who tries to follow but stumbles on his way and a man who refuses to even walk. There is a difference between a man who believes in something but struggles to live up to his beliefs and a man who just plays lip service to belief but does not follow it up.
What does it mean to "believe"? If a man says that he believes in fidelity in marriage, but cheats on his wife, do you think he really believes in it? I don't. I think he just likes to think he does and/or likes others to think he does. There are several places where Jesus explicitly states a requirement that one follow Him/His word/His commandments/the w ...[text shortened]... who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever"
From outward behaviour these men can all look the same at times , but if one looks harder you can tell the difference. It's a distinction which you seem unable to make. For example , I would assume you are committed to not passing judgement on others (for it is one of Jesus' teachings) and I believe that you are and yet I have experienced you as being judgemental nonetheless at times. Do I then assume you don't believe in not judging others or do I just take it that you are human like the rest of us?
12 Jun 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne"If one truly believes in Jesus, wouldn't one follow His word?"---ToO
What does it mean to "believe"? If a man says that he believes in fidelity in marriage, but cheats on his wife, do you think he really believes in it? I don't. I think he just likes to think he does and/or likes others to think he does. There are several places where Jesus explicitly states a requirement that one follow Him/His word/His commandments/the w ...[text shortened]... who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever"
Have you tried it? If you have then maybe you could tell us what barriers there are?. Simon Peter truly believed in Jesus (and was accepted by Jesus as the Rock of his very church) but I seem to remember that Peter was far from perfect in his following and Jesus did not reject him. The Jesus you portray should have cast him away as a sinner but he didn't and to this day you still haven't told me what you make of this.
12 Jun 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne"It still amazes me that there are so many who jump all over me for advocating following the teachings of Jesus." ---ToO-----
What does it mean to "believe"? If a man says that he believes in fidelity in marriage, but cheats on his wife, do you think he really believes in it? I don't. I think he just likes to think he does and/or likes others to think he does. There are several places where Jesus explicitly states a requirement that one follow Him/His word/His commandments/the w ...[text shortened]... who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever"
Does it REALLY amaze you or are you just saying this for effect? If it amazes you then I could explain why you get this reaction if you like. It seems quite a natural reaction to me and it doesn't surprise me.
12 Jun 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneDo people always act in accordance with their own beliefs?
What does it mean to "believe"? If a man says that he believes in fidelity in marriage, but cheats on his wife, do you think he really believes in it? I don't.
Let's say the man feels guilty after he cheats. Nobody else knows he did it; nobody even has a suspicion, but still the feeling persists. Why? To turn your own question around, if he actually does not believe in fidelity, then where's the guilt coming from?
12 Jun 08
Originally posted by SwissGambitGood point. It's probably because he has acted against his true beliefs and his conscience is eating him. This truth might be too complex for ToO , he sees things in black and white.
Do people [b]always act in accordance with their own beliefs?
Let's say the man feels guilty after he cheats. Nobody else knows he did it; nobody even has a suspicion, but still the feeling persists. Why? To turn your own question around, if he actually does not believe in fidelity, then where's the guilt coming from?[/b]
12 Jun 08
2 edits
Originally posted by SwissGambitThis really wasn't the point, but we can explore this a bit if you like. I'm sure you know as well as I do that people have a system of (often competing) beliefs. It's been my experience that the vast majority of people don't hold strong well-defined beliefs - instead they have a pretty poorly defined system that can change with the wind. I'd think that any "guilt" that they'd feel is also subject to that wind. Then there are always those who "know that they're supposed to feel guilty at the very least" so can manage to muster up some. Whatever. They're all signs of a pretty immature individual.
Do people [b]always act in accordance with their own beliefs?
Let's say the man feels guilty after he cheats. Nobody else knows he did it; nobody even has a suspicion, but still the feeling persists. Why? To turn your own question around, if he actually does not believe in fidelity, then where's the guilt coming from?[/b]
The real question is what did Jesus mean when He said "believe"? Like I said, "There are several places where Jesus explicitly states a requirement that one follow Him/His word/His commandments/the will of God, etc." If there is to be integrity within His words, it would make sense that Jesus was speaking of a very strong well-defined belief - not merely "professing" belief.
Also, take a look at the primary commandment of Jesus. "With all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" doesn't exactly lend itself to competing beliefs or desires.
Mark 12:30
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment."
Thoughts?
13 Jun 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI would just caution you, and your interpretation of Jesus, to be careful in disqualifying a person from holding belief due to one act committed against that belief, lest you deprive Jesus of his audience.
This really wasn't the point, but we can explore this a bit if you like. I'm sure you know as well as I do that people have a system of (often competing) beliefs. It's been my experience that the vast majority of people don't hold strong well-defined beliefs - instead they have a pretty poorly defined system that can change with the wind. I'd think that a ...[text shortened]... ll your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment."
Thoughts?
13 Jun 08
It seems to boil down to how "free" Christ is with His gift of salvation. I think he's quite liberal, seeing as I continue to sin, even though I've been saved. I don't wake up every morning and say "Yay! I'm saved so what sin can I go out and commit today?", but as is well known, Christians do not stop erring just because Jesus chose them. Some feel that salvation requires more. That's cool....so "can't we all just get along?"
13 Jun 08
Originally posted by PinkFloydYes , and it also brings up the issue of assurance. If one has to be perfect and never sin from some particular point in your life (in order to be saved) then one is living in the fear that only one stray glance at a woman or a loss of temper will lead to damnation. Hardly a recipe for learning to love God. How would one know that one is actually saved? Decades of sinless living could go down the drain in one second. I have to believe that's not what God intends and that this is not what Jesus meant either.
It seems to boil down to how "free" Christ is with His gift of salvation. I think he's quite liberal, seeing as I continue to sin, even though I've been saved. I don't wake up every morning and say "Yay! I'm saved so what sin can I go out and commit today?", but as is well known, Christians do not stop erring just because Jesus chose them. Some feel that salvation requires more. That's cool....so "can't we all just get along?"
13 Jun 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterIs that a 'have to believe because I couldn't live with the consequences if its not true hence I must delude myself' or is it a 'have to believe based on the evidence and what makes sense'?
I have to believe that's not what God intends and that this is not what Jesus meant either.
For me there are glaring contradictions in the by faith version of Christianity.
1. A claim the salvation is not earned.
2. A claim that faith is required (surely that means earned?)
3. A claim that salvation is not about being 'fair' as in all fairness nobody deserves salvation.
4. A claim that leaving you out because of some petty sin would be unfair.
I always thought that there must be more to it and I am missing something that some people understand better than I, but from my discussions on this forum I am suspecting that many people do not understand it at all, they simply ignore the contradictions because thats what they 'have to believe'.
13 Jun 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadMy faith says that "required" does not mean "earned". I don't have to earn salvation. First, I can't. Second, it's already been "earned" for me by the death and resurrection of Jesus. And on the contraindication of 3 & 4 , the answer is also Jesus and the cross. We would indeed all be "left out had He not died for each and every human sin, past, present and future.
Is that a 'have to believe because I couldn't live with the consequences if its not true hence I must delude myself' or is it a 'have to believe based on the evidence and what makes sense'?
For me there are glaring contradictions in the by faith version of Christianity.
1. A claim the salvation is not earned.
2. A claim that faith is required (surely ...[text shortened]... t all, they simply ignore the contradictions because thats what they 'have to believe'.
No, I don't understand it. You are right--I just believe.
13 Jun 08
1 edit
Originally posted by PinkFloydThe words of Jesus indicate that He's less liberal than you'd like to believe:
It seems to boil down to how "free" Christ is with His gift of salvation. I think he's quite liberal, seeing as I continue to sin, even though I've been saved. I don't wake up every morning and say "Yay! I'm saved so what sin can I go out and commit today?", but as is well known, Christians do not stop erring just because Jesus chose them. Some feel that salvation requires more. That's cool....so "can't we all just get along?"
"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."
"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever."
There are many more verses that point in this direction if you care to see them. These are the most explicit that I know of.
I'm all for "getting along". Since I started pointing out the words of Jesus, there has been a steady stream of attacks especially by Knightmeister who follows me around from thread to thread using lies, have truths and distortions to disparage me, Josephw who has called me pretty much every name in the book and epiphinehas who has even gone so far as to call me "the anti-christ". Hopefully your suggestion will be heeded and these attacks will stop.
13 Jun 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI understand ToO (finally!). There are idealogues on both sides that get personal. (yet another sin I've been known to commit 😳, but am trying to be more mellow). I know the verses you speak of, but surely you know that there are other verses that support the more forgiving, "liberal" side of Christ. In every debate about the Bible, isn't this the case? My own pastor tells me that one must "accept the free gift of salvation AND BE BAPTIZED" ini order to be saved. I don't agree, but he has a verse that does say that very thing. Yet I can point to others that do NOT give the baptism requirement (which I've learned is a Lutheran thing). Anyway---I got addled there, which is not unusual. You just seem to have a "Law-heavy" view of Christianity, and mine leans more toward "Gospel-heavy." (again, my opinion on a subject I'm just beginning to grok). I sincerely doubt either of us is in danger of hellfire over our doctrine. 🙂
The words of Jesus indicate that He's less liberal than you'd like to believe:
"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."
"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever."
There are many more verses that point in this direction if you care to see them. These are the most ex ...[text shortened]... e anti-christ". Hopefully your suggestion will be heeded and these attacks will stop.