Catholic Social Teaching

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
But Jesus doesn't say, "Depart from me, you who have a list of mighty works" does He? Jesus says, "Depart from me, you who work iniquity", i.e., "Depart from me, you who sin".

Jesus also says only "he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" "will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven." If you are doing the will of [His] Father, you aren't sinning, are you? Interesting how that all ties out.

Take the blinders off for once.

ToT, you were part of our Sunday School lesson today! I mentioned the debate we have, raging here on RHP, and he suggested that rather than a "belief" problem, it appears we have a balance of law-Gospel problem. I'm not a lifelong Lutheran, but I think this balance is one of their major tenets. We ARE sinners, and we can't hope to be perfect (law), but Christ came to save us anyway (Gospel); at least, that's how I understood it. If Jesus wanted all those who sinned to depart from him and never return, he would have had an isolated existence, indeed. Who would he have had to preach to?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
But Jesus doesn't say, "Depart from me, you who have a list of mighty works" does He? Jesus says, "Depart from me, you who work iniquity", i.e., "Depart from me, you who sin".

Jesus also says only "he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" "will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven." If you are doing the will of [His] Father, you aren't sinning, are you? Interesting how that all ties out.

Take the blinders off for once.

If you are doing the will of [His] Father, you aren't sinning, are you?---ToO--------------


So if one day Bob Geldof stops a million from starving and sets in motion a movement that continues to save lives and spreads compassion and social justice across the world but goes home tired and shouts at his neighbour losing his temper as he asks for an autograph (ie sins) is he doing the will of the Father or not?

If I help some kid and show him compassion , give him my time and give him some money to get himself home to his parents instead of shooting up in some alleyway , but then cast a stray glance at a beautiful woman on my way home what does the Father see? Does he condemn on the basis of my sin , or does he reconcile me to himself in Jesus and see the love in my heart despite this?

What kind of father do you imagine he is? Does he have some abacus for keeping score of our wrong doings? Even I love my children better than that. I have to believe that God is more compassionate and forgiving then liddle ol me!! LOL

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
But Jesus doesn't say, "Depart from me, you who have a list of mighty works" does He? Jesus says, "Depart from me, you who work iniquity", i.e., "Depart from me, you who sin".

Jesus also says only "he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" "will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven." If you are doing the will of [His] Father, you aren't sinning, are you? Interesting how that all ties out.

Take the blinders off for once.

Don't you see? Their sins will be counted against them because that's the game they are playing. They think they can get enough browny points on Jesus's good books so that he will have to let them in. They don't understand how love really works , how it keeps no records of wrongs. Jesus says that he "never knew them" , and that's the real problem. If they knew him and he knew them they would not try badgering him with a list of all that they had done. They would simply accept his love freely.

Do you understand how God's love really works?

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
ToT, you were part of our Sunday School lesson today! I mentioned the debate we have, raging here on RHP, and he suggested that rather than a "belief" problem, it appears we have a balance of law-Gospel problem. I'm not a lifelong Lutheran, but I think this balance is one of their major tenets. We ARE sinners, and we can't hope to be perfect (law), but turn, he would have had an isolated existence, indeed. Who would he have had to preach to?

Tell your pastor that ThinkOfOne says, "Hey".

You can also tell your pastor that I don't see it as a "belief" problem either. I see it as the words of Jesus vs. the extrapolations of others. There is much in "Christianity" that is contrary to the words of Jesus. I'd think that the one called 'Lord' would get the benefit of the doubt in such cases instead of a 'balancing act'. 🙂

Jesus doesn't want "all those who sinned to depart from him and never return." He wants them all to repent, overcome sin, and follow the will of God. Look at Matthew 7:21-23 again. Jesus will say "I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity" to those who never did so.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Tell your pastor that ThinkOfOne says, "Hey".

You can also tell your pastor that I don't see it as a "belief" problem either. I see it as the words of Jesus vs. the extrapolations of others. There is much in "Christianity" that is contrary to the words of Jesus. I'd think that the one called 'Lord' would get the benefit of the doubt in such cases inst ...[text shortened]... ver knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity" to those who never did so.

I agree with everything you just said.(typed) 🙂 One queston I have concerns your view of God's mercy. We must repeny, yes. We must follow Christ's instructions, yes. We will all ultimately fall short because we are imperfect beings--so God WILL forgive us when we fail. Yes?

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
I agree with everything you just said.(typed) 🙂 One queston I have concerns your view of God's mercy. We must repeny, yes. We must follow Christ's instructions, yes. We will all ultimately fall short because we are imperfect beings--so God WILL forgive us when we fail. Yes?

I don't know why people believe "we will all ultimately fall short".

Jesus certainly didn't seem to think so. Otherwise why would He say things like this?:

John 8:31-32
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said unto him, "If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

Luke 9:23-24
"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him DENY HIMSELF, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it."

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I don't know why people believe "we will all ultimately fall short".

Jesus certainly didn't seem to think so. Otherwise why would He say things like this?:

John 8:31-32
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you f ...[text shortened]... shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it."

The reason why he says things like this is because he's setting the standard for us. However , there is stil provision for us if fall , but that doesn't mean we should not still try to be perfect.

Just because Jesus exhorts us to perfection doesn't mean that he isn't aware of our limitations as well. Every football coach at Euro 2008 will be telling their team to win the trophy but they also know at the back of their mind that realistically they might not. But that shouldn't mean they lower their expectations.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I don't know why people believe "we will all ultimately fall short".

Jesus certainly didn't seem to think so. Otherwise why would He say things like this?:

John 8:31-32
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you f ...[text shortened]... shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it."

I don't know why people believe "we will all ultimately fall short". ----ToO-----


You either are incredibly naive about the human condition or you are basing these comments on some belief you have about yourself as being able to never fail or something. This is why I ask you if you have overcome sin 100% or maybe ever tried to.

It's a perefectly valid question because if you don't understand the above there's something missing in your understanding of the world.

Ultimately God is so Holy that only perfection will match up or you will fall short. Since I know of no-one (apart from Jesus) who has lead a sinless life then we have all ultimately failed already.

Originally posted by knightmeister
The reason why he says things like this is because he's setting the standard for us. However , there is stil provision for us if fall , but that doesn't mean we should not still try to be perfect.

Just because Jesus exhorts us to perfection doesn't mean that he isn't aware of our limitations as well. Every football coach at Euro 2008 will be telli ...[text shortened]... d that realistically they might not. But that shouldn't mean they lower their expectations.

What appeals to you and the words of Jesus do not coincide.

Not that that makes any difference to you.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Tell your pastor that ThinkOfOne says, "Hey".

You can also tell your pastor that I don't see it as a "belief" problem either. I see it as the words of Jesus vs. the extrapolations of others. There is much in "Christianity" that is contrary to the words of Jesus. I'd think that the one called 'Lord' would get the benefit of the doubt in such cases inst ...[text shortened]... ver knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity" to those who never did so.

ToOne - there's something I want you to watch (link below) . It made me think of you. In this scene from Good Will Hunting there's an essential truth being expressed here. Sometimes I feel like Robin Williams and I see you as Matt Damon (except you are probably not a kid and have been out of Boston).

You see , there's something essentially lacking in humanity in what you are saying. You talk about Jesus this and he said that but I don't know what struggle you have really had with sin , what you have felt of Jesus's love . The experiential bit seems to be missing.

You will either get this or not and I fear that you will not. There's a truth here in this clip that transcends all "intellectual" knowledge and all arguments. You see to me unless you have "sweated blood" (St Paul) and wrestled with your demons , you haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about. Unless you have felt the depth of sin within you and fought with the imperfections of your humanity to me you know nothing. Your quotes , your arguments. It's all gobble de gook to me.

I wonder if you have really felt the fragility and vulnerability of standing before the cross with nothing to give to Jesus but your own shame. Have you ever sensed his presence cutting you like a knife in the deepest parts of you? Have you ever grasped at his great compassion and willingness to forgive even the parts of you you dare not look at yourself?

You see for all your scholarship there's nothing really of substance without the experience. There's a Jesus that I know that I don't think you have grasped yet. So if you want to talk about your experience of Jesus then I'm in , I'm fascinated......your move chief....

YouTube

Originally posted by knightmeister
ToOne - there's something I want you to watch (link below) . It made me think of you. In this scene from Good Will Hunting there's an essential truth being expressed here. Sometimes I feel like Robin Williams and I see you as Matt Damon (except you are probably not a kid and have been out of Boston).

You see , there's something essentially lacking i ...[text shortened]... .....your move chief....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21Mi1xr9owM

I'd watch it, but I don't have access to youtube videos. I saw it some years ago. Care to describe it?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I'd watch it, but I don't have access to youtube videos. I saw it some years ago. Care to describe it?

You are on the internet right? Or is it a work thing?

I can't describe it , you have to experience it . Try finding a way of getting on youtube at home or something. Good will hunting Park scene.

BTW- What do you rememebr of the film?

Originally posted by knightmeister
You are on the internet right? Or is it a work thing?

I can't describe it , you have to experience it . Try finding a way of getting on youtube at home or something. Good will hunting Park scene.

BTW- What do you rememebr of the film?

When I said that I don't have access I meant I don't have access. Do you believe anything anyone tells you?

I can't say as I remember a heck of a lot.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
When I said that I don't have access I meant I don't have access. Do you believe anything anyone tells you?

I can't say as I remember a heck of a lot.

It just seems strange that in this day and age you say the utube is inaccessible to you. I believe you , just like I would believe you if you said you never owned a mobile phone , but I would still wonder why.

I'm guessing that you must be at work then and your employer has a utube ban?

Originally posted by knightmeister
It just seems strange that in this day and age you say the utube is inaccessible to you. I believe you , just like I would believe you if you said you never owned a mobile phone , but I would still wonder why.

I'm guessing that you must be at work then and your employer has a utube ban?

I've never owned a mobile phone. 🙂