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Originally posted by PinkFloydPerhaps you're starting to understand in part. The words of Jesus ring true to me. I find His message to be consistent and logical. I'd think the world would be a much better place if people actually followed Him. On the other hand I find much of "Christianity" to be inconsistent, illogical and untrue. I've yet to see any words of Jesus that explicitly and necessarily support the idea that all one need do is profess the belief that Jesus died for everyones sins which is contrary to the verses I provided above which are quite explicit. If you know of anything, I'd like to see it with book, chapter and verse please.
I understand ToO (finally!). There are idealogues on both sides that get personal. (yet another sin I've been known to commit 😳, but am trying to be more mellow). I know the verses you speak of, but surely you know that there are other verses that support the more forgiving, "liberal" side of Christ. In every debate about the Bible, isn't this the case ok). I sincerely doubt either of us is in danger of hellfire over our doctrine. 🙂
Originally posted by SwissGambitSorry for the trite reply. Let me try to do a bit better here.
I would just caution you, and your interpretation of Jesus, to be careful in disqualifying a person from holding belief due to one act committed against that belief, lest you deprive Jesus of his audience.
We obviously can't read other people's minds. We're stuck with judging the sincerity of someone's beliefs by their actions. The difficult question is, where do we draw the line? At what point do a person's actions belie their beliefs?
Some of the determination depends on the degree of the offense. For example, it would be hard to take someone seriously if they claim to respect human life, and yet they have committed a murder.
With a lesser offense, matters are not as clear. Let's say someone believes it is wrong to swear. He's out driving his car, and nearly gets in a wreck due to some crazy driver running a red light - and in the heat of the moment, he swears. Does this mean that he doesn't really believe swearing is wrong? I doubt it, especially if he does not otherwise swear.
Even with a greater offense, like cheating on one's spouse, it is possible that the grief shown is not manufactured, but genuine. In that case, is it really correct to say that the cheater does not believe that what he did was wrong?
We all struggle with double-mindedness to some degree. We have all done things that we know are wrong. That's part of being human.
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Now, back to Jesus. Take the example of Peter, his disciple. Did Jesus disown him because he cut off a guard's ear with a sword? Did Jesus disown him after he denied Jesus three times? I see nothing in either story that indicates that he did. Was Peter not a 'follower of Christ' anymore after that? I'm struggling to understand how such a view can be practical. If people got disqualified from being followers of Jesus for breaking with his teachings one time, then Jesus has no followers.
Originally posted by twhiteheadIt's the knowledge that it doesn't fit with everything else I know about God and the sacrifice of Christ, I wouldn't place too much on my words , I'm totally confident ToO is wrong , but he's a hard man to reach. I'm trying to use his way of expressing himself to ram home a point.
Is that a 'have to believe because I couldn't live with the consequences if its not true hence I must delude myself' or is it a 'have to believe based on the evidence and what makes sense'?
For me there are glaring contradictions in the by faith version of Christianity.
1. A claim the salvation is not earned.
2. A claim that faith is required (surely ...[text shortened]... t all, they simply ignore the contradictions because thats what they 'have to believe'.
Points 1 and 2 just show a glaring lack of understanding regarding Jewish theology. Earned equates to salvation via works which is not the same as faith.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThere are two huge things being missed here.
Perhaps you're starting to understand in part. The words of Jesus ring true to me. I find His message to be consistent and logical. I'd think the world would be a much better place if people actually followed Him. On the other hand I find much of "Christianity" to be inconsistent, illogical and untrue. I've yet to see any words of Jesus that explicitly a ...[text shortened]... explicit. If you know of anything, I'd like to see it with book, chapter and verse please.
Firstly , many of Jesus's words (the ones you quote) are directed explicitly and directly at those who are not his sheep. If you look at the context of them he is responding to people who are challenging him and do not recognise him for who he is.
He is challenged by the Jewish authorities who are actually trying to kill him. In other passages he is refering to those who think they have collected a whole batch of browny points which they can present before him and cash in on heaven. Much of what you quote is in this context and much of what he says is not being directed at believers or those who are actually listening properly to his teachings. So of course his words will sound stern , he's talking to the religious hypocrites of his day. To turn these words into isolated theology divorced from either the context of the chapter or the whole range of his other teachings is surely a misrepresentation.
Secondly , surely the most powerful message that Jesus delivered was his death for "remision of sins" (his words) .The reason for this is that a man's actions usually speak louder than his words. His words have to be seen against the backdrop of what he actually did , because what men do gives real meaning to what they say.
So if we are left with a choice regarding whether to take Jesus's message of God's reconciling love , acceptance , and forgiveness seriously the place I think we should look is the fact that he gave his very life for that message of reconciliation and forgiveness.
You see ToO , when I see the more severe words of Jesus and weigh them up against the words of forgiveness I have a tendency to take his words of forgiveness very seriously because it's those words he chose to underline by a very painful death. In my book that counts for something. For all your quoting I still see Jesus on the cross saying "Father forgive them....." , the very people who are pinning him to the cross and he still pleads for their forgiveness before his father when the fake 'jesus' you talk about should be condemning them.
Call me stupid but I have a tendency to think that a man is serious about something if he is prepared to die for it.
Originally posted by SwissGambitVery good points. Could not have put it better myself. Have you thought about asking Thinkof One whether he actually lives by what he preaches or not? If he lives a perfect life 100% free of sin he would surely have said so by now. If he lives a life where he never ever contradicts himself I would be most impressed. If he doesn't then it makes me wonder if he actually knows what he's talking about , and whether everything he says is purely theoretical and not actually practical.
Sorry for the trite reply. Let me try to do a bit better here.
We obviously can't read other people's minds. We're stuck with judging the sincerity of someone's beliefs by their actions. The difficult question is, where do we draw the line? At what point do a person's actions belie their beliefs?
Some of the determination depends on the degree of t ...[text shortened]... rs of Jesus for breaking with his teachings one time, then Jesus has no followers.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI did list a few a couple of posts back--starting with John 3:16. You may have felt they didn't qualify, but we haven't discussed why.
Perhaps you're starting to understand in part. The words of Jesus ring true to me. I find His message to be consistent and logical. I'd think the world would be a much better place if people actually followed Him. On the other hand I find much of "Christianity" to be inconsistent, illogical and untrue. I've yet to see any words of Jesus that explicitly a ...[text shortened]... explicit. If you know of anything, I'd like to see it with book, chapter and verse please.
Originally posted by PinkFloydIf you want a discussion with ToO don't raise your hopes. The only discussions he seems to have are one way. He will won't allow you to put him on the back foot for even a second or admit any difficulties in his position , he cannot permit that to happen. My experience of him is he sees his postion as self evident and that's all there is to it.
I did list a few a couple of posts back--starting with John 3:16. You may have felt they didn't qualify, but we haven't discussed why.
Originally posted by SwissGambitI'm thinking any discussion of belief is going to prove problematic without laying a lot of groundwork. Probably more groundwork than practical for this forum. That said, I'm willing to try to rough out a sketch. "Belief" is a complex topic. The ambiguous nature of the term doesn't help. It can range from a vague inclination to a strongly held well-defined imperative. And like I said earlier, it's really a system of beliefs with competing beliefs and desires. For the vast majority, it is not a strong well-defined system. Thus it's a system that is extremely situational.
Sorry for the trite reply. Let me try to do a bit better here.
We obviously can't read other people's minds. We're stuck with judging the sincerity of someone's beliefs by their actions. The difficult question is, where do we draw the line? At what point do a person's actions belie their beliefs?
Some of the determination depends on the degree of t ...[text shortened]... rs of Jesus for breaking with his teachings one time, then Jesus has no followers.
Of course not all actions are borne of the belief system. But for this discussion, I'll limit it to ones that are. You asked, "At what point do a person's actions belie their beliefs?". Perhaps the question should be, "Does a persons actions better define what his beliefs truly are?". For example, a man may state he believes in fidelity in marriage. The reality may be that he believes in fidelity in marriage unless he comes across someone sufficiently attractive who shows sufficent interest. You can look at it as belief system that changes with the situation.
As to the question of "guilt" (or "grief" as you also put it - I'm not sure why you changed) this is also a complex topic, but I'll try to discuss it generally. Let's take the case of someone who serially cheats on his spouse. He cheats, feels "guilty", only to cheat again - basically a situational belief system with situational guilt. Realistically this type of guilt is meaningless. That said, I do believe that there is a guilt that is borne of realization. It is this type of guilt that will effect a change on the person's belief system. A change where his belief in fidelity in marriage becomes absolute.
You lost me with your example of Peter. I certainly didn't mean to imply that anyone would be "disowned". I'm at a complete loss as to how you jumped to this conclusion.
As to "double-mindedness", in a way you could look at the central theme of the teachings of Jesus as being the transformation from "double-mindedness" to "single-mindedness". A transformation to a mind of truth, love, compassion, justice, etc. with the abandonment of the mind of the self.
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Originally posted by PinkFloydWell, I tried to explain my position on that. I asked for "words of Jesus that explicitly and necessarily support the idea that all one need do is profess the belief that Jesus died for everyones sins". Try re-reading my response to you as well as my latest post to Swissgambit. It basically comes down to the ambiguousness of the term "belief" and that it doesn't make sense to conceive of Jesus as having contrary "sides". He doesn't strike me as being a "politician" that talks out both sides of His mouth. If you have something in particular you want to discuss, let me know.
I did list a few a couple of posts back--starting with John 3:16. You may have felt they didn't qualify, but we haven't discussed why.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne"words of Jesus that explicitly and necessarily support the idea that all one need do is profess the belief that Jesus died for everyones sins" ---ToO----
Well, I tried to explain my position on that. I asked for "words of Jesus that [b]explicitly and necessarily support the idea that all one need do is profess the belief that Jesus died for everyones sins". Try re-reading my response to you as well as my latest post to Swissgambit. It basically comes down to the ambiguousness of the term "belief" and t ...[text shortened]... es of His mouth. If you have something in particular you want to discuss, let me know.[/b]
I think the point is that it's personalised . To believe theologically that Jesus died for everyone's sins is a very different thing from believing he died for your sins and died for you personally. Paying intellectual lip service to a theology is not the belief that St Paul talked about.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI understand. It is simply a difference over the word "belief", and what it really means. And your point has merit--the Bible does plainly state that even the very demons of hell "believe, and do tremble" when confronted by Christ. I just happen to think that it's understood that the "belief" Christ requires is more than a belief that He exists and is really powerful, but that He died for all our sins, for all time. If that's too all-encompassing a view for the term belief, that's okay; people a lot smarter than me have been debating it since at least the 1st century, so I don't feel too bad. 😉
What does it mean to "believe"? If a man says that he believes in fidelity in marriage, but cheats on his wife, do you think he really believes in it? I don't. I think he just likes to think he does and/or likes others to think he does. There are several places where Jesus explicitly states a requirement that one follow Him/His word/His commandments/the w ...[text shortened]... who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever"
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Originally posted by PinkFloydActually it's more than just the word "belief". It's the word "belief" and how it should be interepreted given the following:
I understand. It is simply a difference over the word "belief", and what it really means. And your point has merit--the Bible does plainly state that even the very demons of hell "believe, and do tremble" when confronted by Christ. I just happen to think that it's understood that the "belief" Christ requires is more than a belief that He exists and is r me have been debating it since at least the 1st century, so I don't feel too bad. 😉
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'
John 8:34-35
"Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever."
With verses like that, I really don't understand how anyone can think that anything less than overcoming sin is adequate for salvation. You'd think it would be a simple case of "when Jesus speaks, people listen". 🙂
What do you think is the minimum requirement for salvation?
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneFor me, the minimum requirement is Believe in Christ as Savior and ye shall be saved. I can't quote chapter and verse, but I know it's there. And of course I interpret belief differently than you. And since I also believe that nothing I do really is involved (my church teaches that "we don't choose Christ; He chooses us"😉, so the minimum gets even more...minimal 🙂 in that all I need do is accept His gracious gift.
Actually it's more than just the word "belief". It's the word "belief" and how it should be interepreted given the following:
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your nam ...[text shortened]... le listen". 🙂
What do you think is the minimum requirement for salvation?
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOneMatthew 7:21-23
Actually it's more than just the word "belief". It's the word "belief" and how it should be interepreted given the following:
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your nam le listen". 🙂
What do you think is the minimum requirement for salvation?
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'
You always quote this but do you really understand it? Do you not notice something about the attitude of these people ? Why do you think there was a problem here? Afterall , they were doing "mighty works" , why should they not be saved?
Have a think about what picture this paints of those people pleading with Jesus for salvation on the final day and making lists of all the things they have done.
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Originally posted by knightmeisterBut Jesus doesn't say, "Depart from me, you who have a list of mighty works" does He? Jesus says, "Depart from me, you who work iniquity", i.e., "Depart from me, you who sin".
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from Jesus for salvation on the final day and making lists of all the things they have done.
Jesus also says only "he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" "will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven." If you are doing the will of [His] Father, you aren't sinning, are you? Interesting how that all ties out.
Take the blinders off for once.