Originally posted by stokerA number of Christian communities do not celebrate Christmas or Easter. The date of Easter is probably the oldest point of contention between Christians. Some early Christians, the Quartodecimans, believed it should held at the same time as the Passover. The controversy wasn't resolved until the Council of Nicaea. Later Protestant Christians have questioned whether Easter should be celebrated at all, feeling that it is the result of pagan influences, possibly based on some Germanic seasonal festival to a God Oester, if I recall properly. I believe RJHinds's dispute about Easter concerns a particular point about the day of Christ's crucifixion. Some Christians believe that Christ was crucified on a Wednesday, not a Friday.
you doubt easter?? and xmas ?? was christ born and died?? or is it the dates you feel unsure about??? if so do you celebrate some other dates, as both are important to christians one as a promise of salvation given by god the other a fufillment of the promise to show we can be saved
Originally posted by Conrau KThe RCC leaders understanding of scripture is false. If they really
No; I am not. Just because Catholics celebrate Christ's birth on the 25th of December does not mean that they actually believe that Christ was born on this date. The Catholic Church in fact has feast days every day of the year, commemorating a different saint, an important biblical event or a doctrine. For example, there is the feast of Saint Augustine, the ...[text shortened]... born on this date. Scrutinise the Catholic Catechism and you will find nothing suggesting that.
understood they would not have substituted a Pagan holiday, Easter,
for the Passover or used another Pagan holiday to celebrate the
birth of Jesus, which the Holy Bible says was at the time of the
Passover. The RCC has completely eliminated Passover, acting like
Pagan holidays are more important. Even the Jehovah's Witnesses
understand this.
Originally posted by RJHindsThe idea that Eater is based on a pagan holiday is one of the most ridiculous claims of anti-Catholic fundamentalists.
The RCC leaders understanding of scripture is false. If they really
understood they would not have substituted a Pagan holiday, Easter,
for the Passover or used another Pagan holiday to celebrate the
birth of Jesus, which the Holy Bible says was at the time of the
Passover. The RCC has completely eliminated Passover, acting like
Pagan holidays are more important. Even the Jehovah's Witnesses
understand this.
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Originally posted by Rajk999I've had my fair share of pissing matches with people who try to tell me the Gospel says something other than what it says. I appreciate you telling me what the bible says -- it never hurts to read it again.
Just to let you know that the inspired part of the Bible says the following:
1. 1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
2. James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of ...[text shortened]... timate the importance of charity. Christ will judge on the basis of now charitable we are. [/b]
FYI "agape" in the bible is translated as both love and as charity. But in neither context does is it defined as a deed, i.e. charitable "work," such as taking the trash out for someone or feeding a poor person. Yes, those are actions OF love and charity, but they do not in and of themselves define agape. Charitable works are the inevitable RESULT of agape, not the definition of agape.
1. 1 Peter 4:8 8 Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins. (ESV)
The words you chose, "have fervent charity among yourselves" is a call for Christians to maintain a strong bond of LOVE among one another. It's not a call to do charitable works in the world.
Not that there's anything wrong with charitable works. They are a fruit of the Spirit and an uncharitable person is demonstrating a lack of Spirit.
2. James is talking about converting nonbelievers to believers. Not charitable works.
Not that there's anything wrong with charitable works. They are a fruit of the Spirit and an uncharitable person is demonstrating a lack of Spirit.
3. And what are these commandments that are to be practiced and preached? To LOVE God above all others, and treat others as you would be treated. No mention of charitable works there.
Not that there's anything wrong with charitable works. They are a fruit of the Spirit and an uncharitable person is demonstrating a lack of Spirit.
4. 1 Cor 3:13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love. (ESV)
No mention of charitable works there.
Not that there's anything wrong with charitable works. They are a fruit of the Spirit and an uncharitable person is demonstrating a lack of Spirit.
5. Abiding by the Law has to do with charitable works only in very small part. Charitable works are not at the core of those writings and it's actually amusing that you would use Paul of all people to try and preach that salvation is attained by works; because Paul spent about 90% of his epistles ensuring the reader understands quite the opposite.
Not that there's anything wrong with charitable works. They are a fruit of the Spirit and an uncharitable person is demonstrating a lack of Spirit.
Originally posted by Conrau KI would describe myself as a fundamentalist -- only by the strict defintion of the word, not by today's interpretation, i.e. "fundy." However I am not anti-Catholic per se. I disagree with many Catholic traditions and interpretations but in my book a faithful believer--no matter the denomination--is a member of the body of Christ.
The idea that Eater is based on a pagan holiday is one of the most ridiculous claims of anti-Catholic fundamentalists.
As a fundamentalist, I understand that the Easter and Christmas celebrations are not based on Pagan holidays. Rather they were celebrated at selected times in order to rival the Pagan celebrations and draw an undeniable distinction between the familiy and the World.
I'm only supposing, but perhaps the leaders of the Christian Church grew tired of their members taking part in the Pagan festivities because there wasn't anything else to do.
Originally posted by Conrau KBesides the fact that Jesus said he would be in the grave 3 days and 3
Well, the Catholic Church could possibly change the date of Christmas. In the past, the Catholic Church has changed the date of a significant feast. In the late 60s, for example, the date of the Feast of Christ the King was changed. The Catholic Church has even abolished particular feast days, such as the feasts of certain saints and created new ones ...[text shortened]... on its dates. I have read the literature of those arguing for a Wednesday; I was not convinced.
nights, which is 72 hours and the Roman Catholic Church saying he was
in the grave only 36 hours, which would make Jesus a false prophet;
there are other evidence that prove Jesus was crucified on Wednesday.
I suppose you know that there can be more than one Sabbath during a
Jewish feast. If not, then the Passover occurs during the Feast on
Unleaven Bread and so the day after the Passover will always be a
Sabbath regardless of what day of the week it falls on. That is a special
Sabbath and not the weekly Sabbath. So during the week that Jesus
was crucified on Wednesday, the day after, Thursday, was the special
Sabbath referred to as a High Day by John. The day after this special
Sabbath, would be Friday, which is not a sabbath. Mark says that on
this Friday, the women buy spices so they wiil be able to anoint Jesus.
Then Luke says they prepared these spices with perfumes on this same
day and rested, according to the commandment, on the saturday Sabbath.
Then Luke says the women, on the first day of the week, at early dawn
came to the tomb, bringing the spices which they had prepared. This
should be proof enough for any honest person that the RCC is wrong,
without going into the other proofs. So will you believe Jesus and the
Holy Bible or will you believe the men in the RCC?
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Originally posted by RJHindsThis should be proof enough for any honest person that the RCC is wrong,
Besides the fact that Jesus said he would be in the grave 3 days and 3
nights, which is 72 hours and the Roman Catholic Church saying he was
in the grave only 36 hours, which would make Jesus a false prophet;
there are other evidence that prove Jesus was crucified on Wednesday.
I suppose you know that there can be more than one Sabbath during a
Jewish f ...[text shortened]... er proofs. So will you believe Jesus and the
Holy Bible or will you believe the men in the RCC?
without going into the other proofs. So will you believe Jesus and the
Holy Bible or will you believe the men in the RCC?
I will address this point first. I have no idea what knowledge of Christianity you have. From comments like these, I gather you know very little. Let me remind you that Good Friday is celebrated on Friday by all mainstream Christian denominations. It is not exclusively a Roman Catholic season. Let me also inform you that Good Friday, though often on a different week because of a different liturgical calendar, is celebrated by the Orthodox Churches, who are equally as old as the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church did not invent Friday nor is the only one to celebrate on a Friday. That you exclusively attack the Roman Catholic Church indicates your own prejudices.
Besides the fact that Jesus said he would be in the grave 3 days and 3
nights, which is 72 hours and the Roman Catholic Church saying he was
in the grave only 36 hours, which would make Jesus a false prophet
This is false and betrays your ignorance of history. I will address this comment first by remarking that many contemporaneous cultures did not recognise the day as '24 hours'. This is a modern way of counting time. The Roman for example counted the day up into 12 horae, as we do, but the night was divided up into four vigiliae ('four nightwatches.'😉 The Romans, of course, knew about the solstice, the variations of daylight and night, but still counted the day and night by different measurements. The Romans did not view the day as a continuous 24 hours but as 12 horae and four vigiliae.
Evidence from Caesar and Tacitus indicates that the Gauls and Germans had a very different view of the day. We do not know how the Gauls or Germans measured the time of a day but what Caesar and Tacitus indicate is that the Gauls (specifically, the Druids) and Germans counted the week not by days, but by nights. This is quite relevant to the interpretation of the Passion and Ressurection story of the gospels: according to the Gauls and Germans, what we consider 'three days' would be counted as 'three nights' (which could be, minimally, one night, one day, one night, one day, one night, equalling 60 hours, rather than 72.)
In fact, it is quite obvious from Scripture that the Jews have interesting ways of counting time: the next day began at nightfall. This is why historically the Jews would observe the Sabbath from the time of Friday night. This is why the Catholic Church, since the 60s, has allowed Catholics to fulfill their Sunday Mass obligation by attending Mass on Saturday aftr 6:00. That in itself does not solve the issue of the expression 'three days and three nights' which is used by the evangelists. It seems that the expression 'three days and three nights' is actually a figure of speech. So in 1Samuel 30:12, the expression is used to mean 'three days ago' (this day, the previous day and the day before that), which is not the same as 72 hours. It is quite permissible then to interpret Jesus' statement to mean that his death would span three days (the Friday afternoon, the Saturday, and the Sunday morning.)
If not, then the Passover occurs during the Feast on
Unleaven Bread and so the day after the Passover will always be a
Sabbath regardless of what day of the week it falls on. That is a special
Sabbath and not the weekly Sabbath.
Yes, all true.
So during the week that Jesus
was crucified on Wednesday, the day after, Thursday, was the special
Sabbath referred to as a High Day by John. The day after this special
Sabbath, would be Friday, which is not a sabbath. Mark says that on
this Friday, the women buy spices so they wiil be able to anoint Jesus.
Then Luke says they prepared these spices with perfumes on this same
day and rested, according to the commandment, on the saturday Sabbath.
Then Luke says the women, on the first day of the week, at early dawn
came to the tomb, bringing the spices which they had prepared.
You will need to quote Scripture directly. I am not aware of the gospels writers explicitly demarcating the days like that: Sabbath, day for buying spices, Sabbath, Sunday. There are a number of problems with this anyway. Why couldn't they anoint Jesus' body on the Friday? A day would not be needed to prepare spices. In fact, by waiting until the fourth day, Jesus' body would have deterorated significantly and not even be approachable from the smell. Furthermore, according to the Jewish custom of counting days, this would actually be the fourth day, not the third.
Originally posted by sumydidI did not mean to cast all fundamentalist Christians as anti-Catholic. What I had meant is that there are some people who are fervently devoted to the cause of anti-Catholicism and are unwilling to grant one concession in the Catholic Church's favour -- whether they are Plymouth brothers who think the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon or Dawkins-inspired atheists.
I would describe myself as a fundamentalist -- only by the strict defintion of the word, not by today's interpretation, i.e. "fundy." However I am not anti-Catholic per se. I disagree with many Catholic traditions and interpretations but in my book a faithful believer--no matter the denomination--is a member of the body of Christ.
As a fundamentalist, I ...[text shortened]... heir members taking part in the Pagan festivities because there wasn't anything else to do.
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Originally posted by Conrau KYou apparently do not know your Bible very well. You should actually
[b]This should be proof enough for any honest person that the RCC is wrong,
without going into the other proofs. So will you believe Jesus and the
Holy Bible or will you believe the men in the RCC?
I will address this point first. I have no idea what knowledge of Christianity you have. From comments like these, I gather you know very little. Let me custom of counting days, this would actually be the fourth day, not the third.[/b]
read it through sometimes and think about what you are reading.
Matthew 12:39-40 (NASB)
But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation craves
for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;
for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE
SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the
heart of the earth.
He said 3 days and 3 nights, not 1 day and 2 nights.
I am very much aware that the Jews started their day at sunset and
the Romans started their day at midnight. But that makes no difference
in the hours. Three days and three nights is still 72 hours no matter
when you start your count.
You need to put your thinking cap on now for nowhere does the account
spell out Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, or Sunday.
John 19:31 (NASB)
Then the Jews, because it was the day of preparation, so that the bodies would
not remain on the cross on the Sabbath for that Sabbath was a high day),
asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken
away.
John 19:38-40 (NASB)
After these things Joseph of Arimathea, being a disciple of Jesus, but a secret
one for fear of the Jews, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of
Jesus; and Pilate granted permission. So he came and took away His body.
Nicodemus, who had first come to Him by night, also came, bringing a mixture
of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds weight. So they took the body of
Jesus and bound it in linen wrappings with the spices, as is the burial custom
of the Jews.
I am saying this took place just before sunset on Wednesday just before the
the beginning of the Jewish high day Sabbath right after sunset. Then that
high day Sabbath ended Thursday at sunset. So the women, knowing that
guards had been placed at the grave to prevent any tampering and also
knowing that by the time they were able to visit Jesus the original spices
would need to be renewed to prevent a bad smell, went to the market place
to buy spices after this Thursday high day Sabbath. This, of course, had to
be Friday.
Mark 16:1
When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James,
and Salome, bought spices, so that they might come and anoint Him.
Now luke picks up the story here on Friday just after they buy the spices.
Luke 23:56, 24:1 (NASB)
And they returned and prepared spices and perfumes. And on the Sabbath
they rested according to the commandment. But on the first day of the week,
at early dawn, they came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had
prepared.
This is the weekly Sabbath that begins after sunset on Friday and ends at
sunset on Saturday, the 7th day of the week. The first day of the week for
the Jews begins right after sunset on Saturday. So Friday was the only
day they could legally buy anything and do any work while waiting to visit
Jesus at the tomb.
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Originally posted by RJHindsHe said 3 days and 3 nights, not 1 day and 2 nights.
You apparently do not know your Bible very well. You should actually
read it through sometimes and think about what you are reading.
Matthew 12:39-40 (NASB)
But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation craves
for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;
for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND ...[text shortened]...
day they could legally buy anything and do any work while waiting to visit
Jesus at the tomb.
Yes, and I claim that is a figure of speech. I refer you again to 1Samuel 30.12 where the expression 'three days and nights' clearly does not mean 72 hours.
This is the weekly Sabbath that begins after sunset on Friday and ends at
sunset on Saturday, the 7th day of the week. The first day of the week for
the Jews begins right after sunset on Saturday. So Friday was the only
day they could legally buy anything and do any work while waiting to visit
Jesus at the tomb.
I don't see anywhere in these passages where there is mention of a second Sabbath. That is a very counter-intuitive reading. I repeat, given that the body rapidly decomposes (I suggest you read up on the process of decay after death). You cannot spice a body after four days (Wednesday afternoon, Thursday, Friday and Saturday until Sunday morning -- we are talking of about 80 hours.) It is not even possible to approach a body after that time. I cannot imagine why tse women would buy spices for a body knowing the state it would be in.
Originally posted by Conrau KYou are not paying attention. Didn't you read that they used about 100
[b]He said 3 days and 3 nights, not 1 day and 2 nights.
Yes, and I claim that is a figure of speech. I refer you again to 1Samuel 30.12 where the expression 'three days and nights' clearly does not mean 72 hours.
This is the weekly Sabbath that begins after sunset on Friday and ends at
sunset on Saturday, the 7th day of the week. The first da ...[text shortened]... I cannot imagine why tse women would buy spices for a body knowing the state it would be in.
pounds of spices when they first buried Jesus.
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Originally posted by Conrau KI looked up 1 Samuel 30:12 but can not see why you can say the 3 days
[b]He said 3 days and 3 nights, not 1 day and 2 nights.
Yes, and I claim that is a figure of speech. I refer you again to 1Samuel 30.12 where the expression 'three days and nights' clearly does not mean 72 hours.
This is the weekly Sabbath that begins after sunset on Friday and ends at
sunset on Saturday, the 7th day of the week. The first da I cannot imagine why tse women would buy spices for a body knowing the state it would be in.
and 3 nights there is not 72 hours. How many hours do you think it was
if it is so clear that it is not 72 hours.
You also need to learn more about Jewish customs and holy days to be
able to understand that it is talking about two different Sabbaths. You
may think each Saturday is the only Sabbath the Jews observed. But
a Sabbath is any day, work is prohibited, during feast days for example.
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Originally posted by Conrau KI know the folks you speak of! Many of them! If you were to ask them, they'd probably tell you the RCC is more of a plague in this world than sin and disbelief.
I did not mean to cast all fundamentalist Christians as anti-Catholic. What I had meant is that there are some people who are fervently devoted to the cause of anti-Catholicism and are unwilling to grant one concession in the Catholic Church's favour -- whether they are Plymouth brothers who think the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon or Dawkins-inspired atheists.
My wife is Mexican Catholic. Talk about a clash of ideas, she and I... but, I still consider her a sister in the Body of Christ. A misguided one, in my opinion, but a sister nonetheless! 🙂
Originally posted by sumydidThat is right. The followers are misguided by the leadership. But they
I know the folks you speak of! Many of them! If you were to ask them, they'd probably tell you the RCC is more of a plague in this world than sin and disbelief.
My wife is Mexican Catholic. Talk about a clash of ideas, she and I... but, I still consider her a sister in the Body of Christ. A misguided one, in my opinion, but a sister nonetheless! 🙂
are still taught the importance of faith and trust in Christ Jesus for
salvation and recognize Him as the Son of God and member of the
Godhead, unlike the Jehovah's Witnesses.