Originally posted by menace71How is it 'balance' to ignore the teaching of Paul in Romans 2?
There must be some type of balance in this argument. Good works are the fruit of the spirit so the bible says. Christ says you will know the tree by it's fruit. James talks about what good is your religion if it has not works. Of course faith seems to be a key component that cause one to want to do good works.
Manny
Originally posted by whodeyNothing you say there contradicts what Paul said.
The theif on the cross is the example of what I am talking about. He had NO chance to do any good works. In fact, he "deserved" his fate yet he attained eternal life.
Christianity is the only religion that I know that does not use the good works bad works scale of justice as you can only hope the good works outweigh the bad works. Perhaps the exception ...[text shortened]... ith the theif on the cross. Only God knows when this conversion takes place, not you, not me.
The Jews felt that salvation was for JEWS ONLY. Paul rebuked them for that view in Romans 2. He said that God is no respecter of persons. Do you understand that? That means that God does not care if you are Jew or Gentile or Christian. God is interested in one thing :
Rom 2:5 .... the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Paul also went into great detail about Gentiles who do not have the law, and who do good works will be judged according to their works. Trying to claim as Epi did that those Gentiles were Christians, or that nobody can do good works except Christians is twisting the Bible and very much like the Jews who Paul condemned.
Salvation can be awarded to anyone...
Some get it through faith only like the thief on the cross you are so fond of quoting,
Some through a combination of faith and works - I would say like the majority of Christians and Jews.
Some by works only, like some righteous non-Christian Gentiles.
This idea Christians have that only a Christian can do good works is absolute garbage and totally contrary to bible teaching.
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Originally posted by Rajk999If you read your OT, you will see that Abraham was justified via his faith in God as is repeated many times in the NT. So why is that necesarry? It is needed because we are not justified by our own righteousness, rather, we simply adopt the righteousness of God by following him by his every word. If not, why was Abraham not chastised for taking his son to be sacrificed as the Lord commanded? You see, obediance/faith are not always masked in "good works" and can sometimes be seen as just the opposite. Also, good works at times achieve a "bad" result. For example, we all know the saying that good intentions pave the way to hell and we can all think of situations like this. The story of Uzzah stretching his hand to save the ark of the covenant comes to mind and was slain by the Lord. You see, good intentions but no faith/obedience. THat is why hearing from God is key. It is HIS righteousness and HIS insight that we need to tap into.
Nothing you say there contradicts what Paul said.
The Jews felt that salvation was for JEWS ONLY. Paul rebuked them for that view in Romans 2. He said that God is no respecter of persons. Do you understand that? That means that God does not care if you are Jew or Gentile or Christian. God is interested in one thing :
[i]Rom 2:5 .... the righteous judg ...[text shortened]... t only a Christian can do good works is absolute garbage and totally contrary to bible teaching.
Now I won't sit here and tell you that everyone who does not accept Christ's sacrifice on the cross by faith will not ba saved. After all, Abraham did not accept it and he clearly as saved. He simply was unable to do so because he lived before his time. However it is my contention that ALL are saved ONLY through Christ's sacrifice as was ultimately Abraham. Additionally, God desires people to place their faith in him and the sacrifice he has provided us. As Paul says, who can escape if we reject such a salvation? Of course, you also run into those who reject the sacrifice of Christ on the cross and reject him as their Lord for various reasons. I will conclude by saying that God will be their judge, not me, however, if they are saved it will ONLY be through the sacrifice of Christ. To say otherwise would be to say that there are a myriad of ways into heaven other than Christ thus negating the purpose and message of the gospels.
Originally posted by whodeyYou have the same problem - superiority complex - like the Jews.
If you read your OT, you will see that Abraham was justified via his faith in God as is repeated many times in the NT. So why is that necesarry? It is needed because we are not justified by our own righteousness, rather, we simply adopt the righteousness of God by following him by his every word. If not, why was Abraham not chastised for taking his son to ...[text shortened]... ways into heaven other than Christ thus negating the purpose and message of the gospels.
Originally posted by Rajk999This is the argument for those who did/do not get a chance to hear the gospel. From Romans.
Nothing you say there contradicts what Paul said.
The Jews felt that salvation was for JEWS ONLY. Paul rebuked them for that view in Romans 2. He said that God is no respecter of persons. Do you understand that? That means that God does not care if you are Jew or Gentile or Christian. God is interested in one thing :
[i]Rom 2:5 .... the righteous judg ...[text shortened]... t only a Christian can do good works is absolute garbage and totally contrary to bible teaching.
Manny
Originally posted by Rajk999It stands to reason that God would judge a person who has never heard the Gospel according with how much light they've received.
So what happens to those who dont hear the gospel?
Two things:
(1) I would not go around assuring everyone that there's really no need to obey the Gospel.
(2) I still contend that Paul in Romans chapter 2 is talking about Christian Gentiles rather than Pagan Gentiles.
Originally posted by epiphinehasAre you agreeing with Paul? What do you mean by "how much light"? Paul said that they will be judged according to their works, and according to their law and their conscience, not the Law of Moses.
It stands to reason that God would judge a person who has never heard the Gospel according with how much light they've received.
Two things:
(1) I would not go around assuring everyone that there's really no need to obey the Gospel.
(2) I still contend that Paul in Romans chapter 2 is talking about Christian Gentiles rather than Pagan Gentiles.
Your two things:
1. I have assured nobody of anything. I have simply repeated what Christ and Paul said. In any case I am sure that everybody reading these forums have heard of Christ, Paul and the gospel and can distinguish good from evil. If their conscience guides them to do good works then I am sure that their good works will not go unnoticed. But I agree that anyone that who rejects Christ or the gospel is in danger of punishment.
2. Your contention that they are Christian Gentiles is caused by your refusal to accept a teaching which will overturn all your preconveived beliefs that Christians have some kind of monopoly on salvation and that Christians only are capable of good works. You are simply wrong. Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves.. So Christian Gentiles have no law? Christian Gentiles have the commandments of Christ. Paul is referring to people who have only their conscience to guide them. The commandments of Christ IS A LAW.
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Originally posted by Rajk999Yes. They get saved because of God's grace and mercy but they do the law of God anyway. There will be myriads upon myriads from every tribe & tongue before the throne of God. I think you are on the money on this one. I think Christians think at times that ok say this magic formula here and you will be saved! Not so. There is no magic formula.
So are you agreeing with Paul that Gentiles can do good works? In other words not only Christians are able to do good works ?
Manny
Seems a contradiction but when anyone stands before God saved it's by God's mercy & grace anyway. I believe our works are a natural out pouring of God's grace they are the fruits of the spirit. Seems simplistic but an orange tree will produce oranges a Christian should produce good works! Works alone can't save you but faith will cause you to do the works of God.
Manny
Originally posted by menace71Careful now Manny. With views like that you will be ostracized from the 'Christian' community...🙂
Yes. They get saved because of God's grace and mercy but they do the law of God anyway. There will be myriads upon myriads from every tribe & tongue before the throne of God. I think you are on the money on this one. I think Christians think at times that ok say this magic formula here and you will be saved! Not so. There is no magic formula.
Manny