Christ is the only way

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes, being forced to go with your teenage daughter, your wife and your mom! for clothes , curtains and tiles for the kitchen floor, for ones trauma is only just beginning, ahhhh the horror!

It doesn't get much gayer than that.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Which is the whole point. How can Allah be truely omnisicent unless he is present to every hurt and pain and suffering that has ever occurred in human history? Jesus is because he is God incarnate with us and present via his spirit.

It's also virtually impossible to imagine how Allah can know what it really feels like to be human , tempted , reject in this life that you would not have known unless you had experienced them for yourself.

This post is a fine example of flawed christian thinking. I wonder ,knightmeister, what religon you would have been if you were born in the middle of India? Would you look down on christianity? Judging by your post , (and given you would've learned the same amount of things in India), I would say "Yes".

Originally posted by knightmeister
Which is the whole point. How can Allah be truely omnisicent unless he is present to every hurt and pain and suffering that has ever occurred in human history? Jesus is because he is God incarnate with us and present via his spirit.

It's also virtually impossible to imagine how Allah can know what it really feels like to be human , tempted , reject ...[text shortened]... in this life that you would not have known unless you had experienced them for yourself.

Does this argument imply that God was NOT omnisicent prior to Jesus being born? wasnt that a bit of a failing that he could have put right early on?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
This post is a fine example of flawed christian thinking. I wonder ,knightmeister, what religon you would have been if you were born in the middle of India? Would you look down on christianity? Judging by your post , (and given you would've learned the same amount of things in India), I would say "Yes".

I understand that what you see here is some kind of Christian elitism , but try forgetting that issue for once and looking at the issue. I am making a point about how God can actually know what it is to suffer , be human , fragile and in pain.

If Islam had an incarnate God who suffered and died and Christianity did not I would be making the same point in reverse.

My position is that a God who actually wants to redeem man from suffering and death has to enter into death and know what it is to be human. Otherwise , all of God's comforting words , compassion and promises of hope turn to just meaningless platitudes.

What kind of God is authentic in his response to suffering ? The God who says " there, there , don't worry I can imagine how you feel" or the God who says "I've been there and I have experienced it , I KNOW it"

How about actually addressing the philosophical point I am making here about suffering?

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Does this argument imply that God was NOT omnisicent prior to Jesus being born? wasnt that a bit of a failing that he could have put right early on?

Christs death on the cross is an eternal act and not time bound. The Bible says he was "slain before the foundation of the world". In this sense God has always eternally known what it is to suffer - it's just for us it makes no sense because we are trapped in time.

In any case , what are your thoughts on the whole issue of how a God should respond to suffering? If God exists , is it Ok for you that he might never know what it is to suffer and be human?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Politicians who are responsible for solving poverty , unemployment but have never experienced these things first hand or got their hands dirty just don't cut the mustard. I'm sure many agree. The same would apply to a Counsellor or Psychologist who has never faced their own demons. They are just not qualified enough in the school of life to have any re ...[text shortened]... e , broken in pain that's exactly the kind of thing I would expect of a real living God.

What chutzpah!

Originally posted by knightmeister
Christs death on the cross is an eternal act and not time bound. The Bible says he was "slain before the foundation of the world". In this sense God has always eternally known what it is to suffer - it's just for us it makes no sense because we are trapped in time.

In any case , what are your thoughts on the whole issue of how a God should respond ...[text shortened]... If God exists , is it Ok for you that he might never know what it is to suffer and be human?

In this sense God has always eternally known what it is to suffer
Then he didnt need to experience it through Jesus

it's just for us it makes no sense because we are trapped in time.
For us it makes no sense? But you make sense of it!

If God exists , is it Ok for you that he might never know what it is to suffer and be human?
If God exists why should he know what it is like to be human? Why should he want to?In fact fundamently he cannot know what it is to be human!

(Do I have a need to know what it is like to be an ant?)

Originally posted by knightmeister
I understand that what you see here is some kind of Christian elitism , but try forgetting that issue for once and looking at the issue. I am making a point about how God can actually know what it is to suffer , be human , fragile and in pain.

If Islam had an incarnate God who suffered and died and Christianity did not I would be making the same po
How about actually addressing the philosophical point I am making here about suffering?

"I understand that what you see here is some kind of Christian elitism , but try forgetting that issue for once and looking at the issue. I am making a point about how God can actually know what it is to suffer , be human , fragile and in pain."
Given that you surely assume God is omniscient or designed us then can we not infer he has such knowledge anyway from a purely mechanical understanding of our bodies/pain receptors etc...???

"If Islam had an incarnate God who suffered and died and Christianity did not I would be making the same point in reverse."
Might it instead be the case that were you born into a different religion then you'd be singing the praises of some other benevolent(???) act that this other God did? and fail to recognise the virtue of Jesus dying on the cross as told in one of many false religions??

"My position is that a God who actually wants to redeem man from suffering and death has to enter into death and know what it is to be human. Otherwise , all of God's comforting words , compassion and promises of hope turn to just meaningless platitudes."
By the accounts of many Christians...if your God "knew what it was like to be human" then he shouldn't be holding the entire human race responsible for the actions of Adam and Eve now should he?
We are to believe that pain and suffering came about as a result of their naughty apple gobbling are we not?

"What kind of God is authentic in his response to suffering ? The God who says " there, there , don't worry I can imagine how you feel" or the God who says "I've been there and I have experienced it , I KNOW it" "
I'd feel no more inclined to venerate a being that visits the pain we collectively as humans feel, in a limited way unto itself than one who just gives us pain...especially when that being is omnipotent creator of the universe. Both are gits!

Originally posted by knightmeister
I understand that what you see here is some kind of Christian elitism , but try forgetting that issue for once and looking at the issue. I am making a point about how God can actually know what it is to suffer , be human , fragile and in pain.

If Islam had an incarnate God who suffered and died and Christianity did not I would be making the same po ...[text shortened]...
How about actually addressing the philosophical point I am making here about suffering?

How can I when you have such a christocentric view of suffering. I think its narrow-minded to say the best.

Originally posted by Agerg
"I understand that what you see here is some kind of Christian elitism , but try forgetting that issue for once and looking at the issue. I am making a point about how God can actually know what it is to suffer , be human , fragile and in pain."
Given that you surely assume God is omniscient or designed us then can we not infer he has such knowledge a ...[text shortened]... cially when that being is omnipotent creator of the universe. Both are gits!

By the accounts of many Christians...if your God "knew what it was like to be human" then he shouldn't be holding the entire human race responsible for the actions of Adam and Eve now should he?
We are to believe that pain and suffering came about as a result of their naughty apple gobbling are we not?
------------------------agerg---------------

No we are not to believe that. It's just mythology and a way of expressing spiritual truth. It's like saying when Jesus said "you must be as gentle as doves" that he meant we should rub up against people softly with winged feathers!

Many , many Christians believe in evolution and do not believe the creation myths. But then I guess you probably know this.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
How can I when you have such a christocentric view of suffering. I think its narrow-minded to say the best.

It's not a theological point I'm making here , it's very human infact. It's about empathy , compassion and understanding. If you are dying of cancer I cannot draw up to your bedside and comfort you and say to you " I understand how you feel" because I don't - I have little idea of what it's like.

Also , I have no authority or authenticity in what I say to you because I have not won the right to have it. I've not been there. I cannot meet you in your suffering or help you in your moment of darkness because I cannot go there with you. I cannot talk of overcoming death , pain, suffering/cancer because I would know nothing of what I speak of. This is a piont that any humanist with any empathy or authenticity should be able to get. Why does it elude you?

The point is that I'm pretty darn sure that if Christ hadn't lived and died in the way he did , you guys would have found a way to say " hey , your God doesn't even know what suffering is , he thinks he can judge us , but how can he?let him come down here and get his hands dirty , see what it really feels like to BE human. He talks about redemption from death and sin , well that's just words , why doesn't he show us "

The point is God did not intend to be just some green kid , fresh out of college , all text book but no experience. He walked the walk. That's the point , and I think it irritates you somehow. I don't know how , but the idea seems to have got to you.

Originally posted by LemonJello
What chutzpah!

Why?

Would you prefer an ivory tower God who stayed up on high and judged from a distance? All nice ideas but no real substance?

Originally posted by wolfgang59
[b] In this sense God has always eternally known what it is to suffer
Then he didnt need to experience it through Jesus

it's just for us it makes no sense because we are trapped in time.
For us it makes no sense? But you make sense of it!

If God exists , is it Ok for you that he might never know what it is to suffer and be human?[ ...[text shortened]... cannot know what it is to be human!

(Do I have a need to know what it is like to be an ant?)

In this sense God has always eternally known what it is to suffer -KM
Then he didnt need to experience it through Jesus -WOLF
--------------------------

dOH!

If he hadn't then he wouldn't know would he? The death of Jesus is an eternal act. It's where time and eternity meet.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
[b] In this sense God has always eternally known what it is to suffer
Then he didnt need to experience it through Jesus

it's just for us it makes no sense because we are trapped in time.
For us it makes no sense? But you make sense of it!

If God exists , is it Ok for you that he might never know what it is to suffer and be human?[ ...[text shortened]... cannot know what it is to be human!

(Do I have a need to know what it is like to be an ant?)

Do I have a need to know what it is like to be an ant?

-------wolf--------------

If you intend to pass righteous and perfect judgement on said ants then you had better have ALL the information on them possible.

I used to judge some people who had children and found them irritable and grumpy at times. The when I had some myself I understood what they were going through in a way that I would never be able to before. I just didn't realise how tiring it was.

I fail to see how God wouldn't learn a lot from becoming human. Surely thats' obvious to you.