Christ is the only way

Originally posted by ua41
Again, we can say a lot of philosophies and religions incorporate the same idea.
If we follow up with my previous example of Buddhism, it tends to lead to certain pandeistic/pantheistic characteristics. That is, there is essentially no difference amongst us and creator/creation- a dynamic equilibrium. Kind of like being a bike gear and chain, both require each ...[text shortened]... probably lead to more sever suffering- I don't think he ever had to fight a needle habit.

Saying Christ suffered differently from the rest of us is a bit of a longshot. Sure, I probably won't get crucified, but I can imagine plenty more of a worse death. And it's not like he gave into temptation, which would probably lead to more sever suffering- I don't think he ever had to fight a needle habit.
----------------------------ua41--------------------------------------

I didn't say he suffered differently from the rest of us. I actually said that Christ's suffering is what makes Christianity different from other religions. Are you reading the posts properly?

You are right he never had to fight a needle habit - but the question is why do you think that it's important that he did? Presumably you think that if Christ had a specific experience of drug addiction that would make him more qualified in the eyes of a drug addict ? If so then you must be agreeing with the central point of my argument.

Infact , Christianity goes even further to say that God in Christ is present to all our suffering in the Holy Spirit , so that when the drug addict suffers , God suffers within him. God feels every pain and hurt that humanity feels...but that's a different story.

At least Christ has suffered. In Islam , God does not enter into suffering at all as far as I can see. And Buddhism just seems to say it's an illusion that we can meditate away in our minds.

Originally posted by rwingett
He didn't have to rise again, and in fact did not rise again. The resurrection is a myth. Jesus was a mortal human being who died. If there is to be a 'second coming', it will be a figurative one, and not a literal one.

Of course Jesus rose from the dead. The myth is that He didn't.

I didn't say he suffered differently from the rest of us. I actually said that Christ's suffering is what makes Christianity different from other religions. Are you reading the posts properly?

You are right he never had to fight a needle habit - but the question is why do you think that it's important that he did? Presumably you think that if Christ had a specific experience of drug addiction ...[text shortened]... e. And Buddhism just seems to say it's an illusion that we can meditate away in our minds.[/b]

I fail to see how Christ's suffering is what makes Christianity different. At this point, the argument isn't about suffering, but just about the theistic nature of the religion.

I proposed, since suffering is so inherent across every religion, you can't claim Christianity as different in that aspect
You claim that Christ's suffering brings the difference amongst every religion because of his dynamic cojoined suffering with creation/us (however you want to consider it)

This is just a different application of the same term in different contexts. Because the way Christianity is, it's going to hold suffering as X. Because the way Religion B is, it's going to regard it as Y.
My argument could say, Buddhism is different from every religion because of the way it shows everything to be continually suffering, and be just as valid.

The difference isn't about who's suffering, or how or what/why, it's how this element is manifested across a different set of ideals. It's these ideals that highlight the difference.

Originally posted by black beetle
Who knows? I know nothing about football😵

Awesome😵

Originally posted by ua41
I fail to see how Christ's suffering is what makes Christianity different. At this point, the argument isn't about suffering, but just about the theistic nature of the religion.

I proposed, since suffering is so inherent across every religion, you can't claim Christianity as different in that aspect
You claim that Christ's suffering brings the difference a ...[text shortened]... ted across a different set of ideals. It's these ideals that highlight the difference.

You claim that Christ's suffering brings the difference amongst every religion because of his dynamic cojoined suffering with creation/us (however you want to consider it)

This is just a different application of the same term in different contexts.
------------------------ua41-----------------

When are you going to allow your gut play a part in this? You talk about "dynamic co-joined suffering" as if it were a theorum in physics. This is real people we are talking about here who really suffer. This is an issue that has more to do with the emotions than the intellect.

The whole point of Christ's death and suffering is that when you have your back against the wall and you are desperate , your wife has left you and you have been diagnosed cancer - what God you really want to be crying out to and praying to?

At that point the God who can say " I have been there in pain , rejection and suffering " is in a completely different league from some remote god or fancy intellectual theory.

I think you completely miss the point. This is all about which religion can speak authentically to us in our direst moments.

In Christianity God KNOWS (not intellectually) what suffering/pain is. Christ is uniquely positioned as a deity to be present to any individual when things get really rough. He doesn't "talk about suffering" or theorise - he EXPERIENCED it. He walked the walk.

The point I am making is so simple and not hard to understand if you free your mind from "theories" and see it for what it is. My guess is that one of the reasons why you are not a christian is because I am talking a language you just don't get (sorry if that sounds harsh).

Originally posted by knightmeister
You claim that Christ's suffering brings the difference amongst every religion because of his dynamic cojoined suffering with creation/us (however you want to consider it)

This is just a different application of the same term in different contexts.
------------------------ua41-----------------

When are you going to allow your gut play a part i is because I am talking a language you just don't get (sorry if that sounds harsh).

"The whole point of Christ's death and suffering is that when you have your back against the wall and you are desperate , your wife has left you and you have been diagnosed cancer - what God you really want to be crying out to and praying to? "

Why do you assume that one must cry out and pray to any god at all? Suffering is part of life, why not just deal with it? I don't expect a deity to fix my problems for me.

Therein lies the crux of the difference between Christianity and other religions. It seems Christianity appeals to the victim mentality. I'm suffering therefore someone must pity me and help me. Christ himself was the ultimate victim suffering on the cross. But he suffered for us don't you know - did he bother to ask whether or not some of us wanted him to suffer for us in the first place?

Originally posted by knightmeister
You miss the point if you intellectualise it It's not an intellectual point.

The point is that if you are suffering a painful death then you can reach out to God in Christ who also knows what it is to suffer and die in such a way. The God of Islam (for example) cannot identify or empathise with you in the same way.

Any deity is always open to ...[text shortened]... e - in Christ he does. All other deity religions talk the talk - but Christ walks the walk.

Meh. Zero brownie points for a god who spends a few days suffering and then turns around and condemns others to an eternity of it.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I think you completely miss the point. This is all about which religion can speak authentically to us in our direst moments.[/b]

No, I understand the point. And I'm saying the line of thinking I presented is what comes naturally to me in my direst moments. It's not a thought out process, it's how I view everything on a whim. So what makes this not as authentic?

Also you mentioned Christ experiencing suffering. The point I was trying to make (I'll admit, fairly vague) was that no matter what deity/ideal you want to highlight- that creator has experienced suffering/is experiencing it whatever way you want to say it. There is nothing wrong with accepting that every religious idea tend to be unionized under certain themes and responses- it's just the nature of it.

Originally posted by ua41
No, I understand the point. And I'm saying the line of thinking I presented is what comes naturally to me in my direst moments. It's not a thought out process, it's how I view everything on a whim. So what makes this not as authentic?

Also you mentioned Christ experiencing suffering. The point I was trying to make (I'll admit, fairly vague) was that no matte ...[text shortened]... s idea tend to be unionized under certain themes and responses- it's just the nature of it.

The point I was trying to make (I'll admit, fairly vague) was that no matter what deity/ideal you want to highlight- that creator has experienced suffering/is experiencing it whatever way you want to say it.
----------ua41---------------

You are being vague and genralising.

Islam , for example , finds the whole idea of God being humiliated on a cross or suffering abhorent. For them , God is transcendent and all powerful - the idea of God dying in agony on a cross is ridiculous.

So that's at least one major religion in which God cannot be said to identify with our humanity in the same way as Christ does. Allah does not know what it is to be humiliated , rejected and die in agony - he hasn't experienced it. He hasn't tasted what it is to be human.

Originally posted by Ullr
"The whole point of Christ's death and suffering is that when you have your back against the wall and you are desperate , your wife has left you and you have been diagnosed cancer - what God you really want to be crying out to and praying to? "

Why do you assume that one must cry out and pray to any god at all? Suffering is part of life, why not just deal w ...[text shortened]... he bother to ask whether or not some of us wanted him to suffer for us in the first place?

I challenge you to find anything in Christ's teachings that encourages a victim mentality. Just because Christ identifies with our suffering and can empathise with it does not mean that he is putting forward a "poor me" culture.

Christ deals with suffering by facing it head on and not downplaying the pain of it. So often the "deal with it" or "pull your socks up " culture does not actually deal with anything - it just tries to bury suffering under a pile of denial. Being British I know this only too well - the old "stiff upper lip" routine was a sham. Suffering just went underground and remain undealt with.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I challenge you to find anything in Christ's teachings that encourages a victim mentality. Just because Christ identifies with our suffering and can empathise with it does not mean that he is putting forward a "poor me" culture.

Christ deals with suffering by facing it head on and not downplaying the pain of it. So often the "deal with it" or "pul ...[text shortened]... upper lip" routine was a sham. Suffering just went underground and remain undealt with.

It's not that I think Christ's teachings encourage a victim mentality but Christianity as a whole is another story.

Please answer me this. During this life (not afterlife), when faced with adversity, in what way does worshipping Christ help an individual that keeping a "stiff upper lip" cannot?

Originally posted by Ullr
It's not that I think Christ's teachings encourage a victim mentality but Christianity as a whole is another story.

Please answer me this. During this life (not afterlife), when faced with adversity, in what way does worshipping Christ help an individual that keeping a "stiff upper lip" cannot?

A christians entire motives are different, thus he works, not to acquire wealth, but to provide sustenance and covering for his family, thus freeing him from the snare of materialism and many of the ills which go with it. Thus when financial adversity comes upon him, he is not devastated, but knowing that nothing in the world is permanent and not having attached as much importance to these things, he is not so overcome by grief, that he should throw himself in front of a moving train, because his emphasis, is on something more permanent, which cannot be touched by the ebb and flow of this world, Gods Kingdom. You can name any scenario, and i can guarantee, that the Christian while suffering vexation, shall be comforted, so as not to be left in the lurch, as someone without hope.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
A christians entire motives are different, thus he works, not to acquire wealth, but to provide sustenance and covering for his family, thus freeing him from the snare of materialism and many of the ills which go with it. Thus when financial adversity comes upon him, he is not devastated, but knowing that nothing in the world is permanent and not ha ...[text shortened]... ering vexation, shall be comforted, so as not to be left in the lurch, as someone without hope.

Two points Rob.

Firstly, can only men be Christians? If not i would use the word they, you don't want to display your sexist tendencies to us. Couple that with your homophobic tendencies and it doesn't paint a nice picture of you 'Christians'.

Secondly.

thus he works, not to acquire wealth, but to provide sustenance and covering for his family, thus freeing him from the snare of materialism and many of the ills which go with it.

That sounds like everybody i know. And none of them are religious in any way.
Rob you need to get out more and hang around with people other than the ones down at the Kingdom Hall. You have a rather strange view of the world.

How's the evolution thesis coming along?

oh my dear friend your criticisms are unwarranted, i have no fear of homosexuals, i am not sexiest in the least and i have not been a witness of the most high all my life, and while i appreciate your concern for my well being, i am not as free as i once was to 'hang out', but have many family responsibilities which need my attention.

you must not forget my dear Noobster that we have a book filled with three thousand years of human actions, and therefore much wisdom on what is to be avoided and what is virtuous. It is not drawn from modern psychology, which ebbs and flows and what is established today is discarded tomorrow, but firmly founded on the human experience. Surely you cannot discard it so lightly my friend?

everyone is religious Noobster my friend, even those who are Atheist, for we are humans and have a spiritual side, it simply depends upon what one fills ones spirituality with

i tire of the evolution v creation debate, besides creation is just more exciting 🙂

"thus he works, not to acquire wealth, but to provide sustenance and covering for his family, thus freeing him from the snare of materialism and many of the ills which go with it.

That sounds like everybody i know. And none of them are religious in any way."

I wish I could say that that sounds like everybody I know. However, I can say that many people whom are not Christian fit that description quite well.