Christendoms legacy of killing, can they dismiss it?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
anyhow i need to go, i expect a full public apology and acceptance your share of the guilt when i return, only then can the healing process begin.

Yeah late there in Glasgow I see. Yeah ok there RC 😉

A persons character says more than anything else. Not what the say but what they do.
I do believe in my heart in the theme of the Good Samaritan it is the heart of what God wants. Actually RC I think you believe the same.



Manny

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
ok, hopefully you shall understand, Christendom claims be a force for good on the basis that it is a positive influence. Through the application of biblical principles, if there was any power for good behind it, it would have been able to influence persons to virtue, to stop killing each other, through its failure, it has proven that it is an empty ...[text shortened]... references to its faithlessness and simply provide evidence of its failure. Do you understand?

Yes, I get what you're saying, I just don't get that it says anything new. By Christendom you successfully manage to obfuscate the object of your scorn - what is this Christendom thing? Is it the people who claim to be Christians? Is it the Christian churches? Is it a particular sect of Christianity? Is it all or none of these things?
People do good. People do bad.
Good people can be encouraged to do bad things - such as, blow the crap out of each other in a war - through religion such as Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism and others, and through other means of social and political pressure.
So what?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
we are not talking of suffering, we are talking of Christendom meddling in politics simply because we called them out for fomenting war and sending young men in their millions to a sacrificial death on the alter of war! Why are you not condemning their actions instead of trying to diminish them? do you think it just to send innocent men to jail?

You seem to use the word 'Christiandom' in various different and incompatible contexts. As amannion has already asked above, what do you mean by it?

As for nasty things perpetrated by politicians claiming to be Christian, I am well acquainted with the phenomena in Zambia. Our former president, Chiluba, declared the country a 'Christian Nation' (which of course helped him get votes), and then went on steal millions of dollars from the country, and some of his friends stole money intended for AIDS medication, resulting in thousands of deaths.
Is Zambia (which still claims to be a 'Christian Nation'😉 part of 'Christiandom'? If so, how are any of us guilty of wars in Europe?

Originally posted by amannion
Yes, I get what you're saying, I just don't get that it says anything new. By Christendom you successfully manage to obfuscate the object of your scorn - what is this Christendom thing? Is it the people who claim to be Christians? Is it the Christian churches? Is it a particular sect of Christianity? Is it all or none of these things?
People do good. Peop ...[text shortened]... slam, Hinduism and others, and through other means of social and political pressure.
So what?

no, its not obfuscated, in fact, i think its perfectly obvious what the term Christendom means. It refers to those institutions which claim to be Christian, i mean all you had to do was type in, Christendom definition to a search engine and your ignorance would have dissipated and your claim of successful obfuscation would have melted before your very eyes. So what? So they are reprehensible that's what. If injustice and tyranny, corruption and deceit, mass murder on an unprecedented scale, support for political dictators, stifling of freedom, suppression of conscience, greed and licentiousness on an unprecedented scale doesn't interest you to see it exposed, then i suggest you feel your bum to make sure you are still alive!

Originally posted by twhitehead
You seem to use the word 'Christiandom' in various different and incompatible contexts. As amannion has already asked above, what do you mean by it?

As for nasty things perpetrated by politicians claiming to be Christian, I am well acquainted with the phenomena in Zambia. Our former president, Chiluba, declared the country a 'Christian Nation' (which o ...[text shortened]... tian Nation'😉 part of 'Christiandom'? If so, how are any of us guilty of wars in Europe?

why must you project your own ignorance upon another? there is nothing confusing or incompatible about it. in fact if i really wanted to i would ask you to point out the incompatibilities, but at the risk of getting involved in another petty side issue with practically no relevance, i desist. All you had to do to dispel your ignorance was look it up in a dictionary. God knows there are many online.

we are still in Europe and have very briefly touched upon the horrendous record of Christendom in Africa, But hey feel free to expose what ever you wish.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
no, its not obfuscated, in fact, i think its perfectly obvious what the term Christendom means. It refers to those institutions which claim to be Christian, i mean all you had to do was type in, Christendom definition to a search engine and your ignorance would have dissipated and your claim of successful obfuscation would have melted before your ve ...[text shortened]... rest you to see it exposed, then i suggest you feel your bum to make sure you are still alive!

I just hope you're not confusing "Christendom" with the "Church" which is "The Body of Christ" of whom "Christ is the head".

While there is a world out there where Jesus is not Lord, and institutions, and governments that are propped up by so called Christian institutions, and those governments and institutions are driven by greed and the lust for power, please don't make the mistake of lumping the true church of God in with them.

There are many blurred lines. The tares are among the wheat. When this drama is played out God will separate and judge according to His perfect will.

Originally posted by menace71
Yeah late there in Glasgow I see. Yeah ok there RC 😉

A persons character says more than anything else. Not what the say but what they do.
I do believe in my heart in the theme of the Good Samaritan it is the heart of what God wants. Actually RC I think you believe the same.



Manny

yes, it does, and killing each other by the zillion load speaks volumes, Christendom is an empty facade,

(2 Timothy 3:5) . . .having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power;. . .

Originally posted by josephw
I just hope you're not confusing "Christendom" with the "Church" which is "The Body of Christ" of whom "Christ is the head".

While there is a world out there where Jesus is not Lord, and institutions, and governments that are propped up by so called Christian institutions, and those governments and institutions are driven by greed and the lust for power, en this drama is played out God will separate and judge according to His perfect will.

yes this is exactly what i am saying, infact if Christ was truly the head, why were his representatives, greedy, corrupt, licentious, willingly sending young men to their deaths in millions? guilty of genocide? its a façade, the whole thing is rotten from its core outwards. See if your name is on the list.


Roman Catholic Church
Eastern Orthodox
Russian
Greek
Romanian and others
Lutheran
German
Swedish
American and others
Anglican
Episcopal
Methodist
Salvation Army
Baptist
Pentecostal
Congregational
Calvinism
Presbyterian
Reformed Churches

I apologise if i missed anyone 😉

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes this is exactly what i am saying, infact if Christ was truly the head, why were his representatives, greedy, corrupt, licentious, willingly sending young men to their deaths in millions? guilty of genocide? its a façade, the whole thing is rotten from its core outwards. See if your name is on the list.


Roman Catholic Church
Eastern Orthod ...[text shortened]...
Congregational
Calvinism
Presbyterian
Reformed Churches

I apologise if i missed anyone 😉

Cute.

However, not quite good enough as an excuse to deny the divinity of Jesus.

Look at the first letter to the Corinthians. They were divided in Corinth. Some said they were of Apollos (ie. perhaps an Apollian Church). Others said "Well then, WE are of Peter" - (perhaps a Petrine Church). Then some said "Forget you guys. WE are of Paul". (ie. perhaps a Pauline Church).

And some real exclusive ones said "WE are of Christ. AHA!. That sounds real good. Except what they really mean is that they are of Christ in an exclusive way. "We are of Christ and other Christian brothers are NOT of Christ." They too were classed by the apostle as being immature and carnal like the rest - DIVISIVE.

Now, the apostles's solution to these divisions in the church in Corinth was not to deny that Jesus is God incarnate. Paul did not say "Well, since you are all divided into different factions, therefore the solution is to demote Jesus to be an arch angel and go back to being witnesses of the Old Testament Jehovah"

Denying that the Word Who was God and became flesh (John 1:1.14) was not the God ordained solution to divisions in the Christian church in Corinth.

While divisions are a scandel and a tragedy, there is still the call for those who are approved to overcome the surrounding division.

You cannot fight against the errors of the Christian Church by inventing a heresy. You cannot fight heresy with another heresy. And teaching an antichrist doctrine that Jesus is Michael the angel and not God Himself incarnate will not be accepted by Jehovah as your remedy for divisions among Christians.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes this is exactly what i am saying, infact if Christ was truly the head, why were his representatives, greedy, corrupt, licentious, willingly sending young men to their deaths in millions? guilty of genocide? its a façade, the whole thing is rotten from its core outwards. See if your name is on the list.


Roman Catholic Church
Eastern Orthod ...[text shortened]...
Congregational
Calvinism
Presbyterian
Reformed Churches

I apologise if i missed anyone 😉

Denominations are a work of the flesh. There is no doubt about that (Galatians 5:19,20) Denominations is a scandel and a sinful tragedy. But it is not a defeat to the Christian church.


And it is not a reason for heretics to say "Therefore, since Christians are divided, the Holy Spirit is only a force, The Word was a different God, and Christ is an arch angel. There. THAT will fix the problem of divisions among Christians."

God will not accept your antichrist gospel of "another Jesus" as the remedy for divisions among His people.

Originally posted by jaywill
Denominations are a work of the flesh. There is no doubt about that [b](Galatians 5:19,20) Denominations is a scandel and a sinful tragedy. But it is not a defeat to the Christian church.


And it is not a reason for heretics to say "Therefore, since Christians are divided, the Holy Spirit is only a force, The Word was a different God, and Christ i ...[text shortened]... ur antichrist gospel of "another Jesus" as the remedy for divisions among His people.[/b]

at least we have committed no acts of genocide and sent millions of young persons to their death while the church bells provided a ready chorus. Your attempts to make it a doctrinal issue makes a mockery of those lives, you really aught to be ashamed. Fess up, God has abandoned Christendom, the holy spirit does and cannot reside there, you have proven through your actions a faithlessness in the teachings of the Christ, your house is abandoned to you.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
at least we have committed no acts of genocide and sent millions of young persons to their death while the church bells provided a ready chorus. Your attempts to make it a doctrinal issue makes a mockery of those lives, you really aught to be ashamed. Fess up, God has abandoned Christendom, the holy spirit does and cannot reside there, you have pro ...[text shortened]... ugh your actions a faithlessness in the teachings of the Christ, your house is abandoned to you.

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at least we have committed no acts of genocide and sent millions of young persons to their death while the church bells provided a ready chorus. Your attempts to make it a doctrinal issue makes a mockery of those lives, you really aught to be ashamed. Fess up, God has abandoned Christendom, the holy spirit does and cannot reside there, you have proven through your actions a faithlessness in the teachings of the Christ, your house is abandoned to you.
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Paul had a co-worker named Demas. Paul writes that Demas had forsaken him because he loved this present world.

Should Paul be ashamed because Demas forsook the Christian work because of love for this passing world ?

Who are you to lay the failure of Demas at the feet of Paul that Paul should be ashamed?

Your logic is drunken with misdirection. It is not soberminded. It is befuddled.

I am not defending Christiandom. So why do I need to "Fess up" anything ? Jesus said that the gates of hades would not prevail against the church which He would build. And His church has not been defeated. We are still here.

Show me the passage that Christ would forsake the church. Rather He prophesied of apostasy, falling away. He did not prophesy of the defeat of His church.

So why do you gloat, eager for the fall of Christ's church? This is unbelieavably wicked. Did you never read His word to the churches in Revelation 2 and 3 ?


"He who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God." (Rev. 2:7)

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall by no means be hurt of the second death." (2:11)

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give of the hidden manna, and to him I will give a white stone, and upon the stone a new name wrotten, which no one knows except him who receives it." (2:17)

"And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father; And to him I will give the morning star. He who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (3:26-29)

"He who overcomes will be clothed thus, in white garments, and I shall by no means erase his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. He who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (3:5,6)

"He who overcomes, him I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall by no means go out anymore, and I will write upon him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which descends out of heaven from My God, and My new name. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (3:12,13)

"He who overcomes, to him I will give to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat with My Father on His throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (3:21,22)

In every letter Christ calls for some to overcome whatever degradation or problems each individual church has. He expects that some will not only be Christians but will be overcoming Christians, victorious Christians.

Though they may be in the midst of degradation, as nearly each of the seven churches had in some form, He still calls for the overcomers to rise to the normal level of Christian victory.

In every age since the inception of the church there have been some overcomers. They need not be ashamed of the defeated believers. They certainly need not be ashamed of the false believers !

For the last 2000 years, no matter what degradation has occured in Christiandom, there has always been a remnant of overcomers, those who would hear what the speaking Spirit speaks to the churches.

You hope that all were defeated ? Your hope is in vain. You scold all believers that they should be ashamed of those true and false disciples who gave occasion for the Gospel to have a bad name ? This is not soberminded.

Why should those who hear the Spirit and who overcome be made to confess up and be ashamed of those who were defeated by the world, the flesh, religion, or the devil ?

Why should the overcomers feel shame for the defeated ?

its quite simple really, i do not hold that those who are termed Christians, really are Christians, otherwise they would not have engaged in those wicked works by abandoning the teachings of the Christ. Jesus himself states, 'by their fruits you shall know those men', does he not? shall we list the ways in which Christendom has abandoned the teachings of the Bible? shall we? Secondly the Holy spirit cannot be present among such a thoroughly wicked throng, for its has its fruit in peace and righteousness, not in strife, envies and killing.

(Galatians 5:19-24) . . .Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct,  idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects,  envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning you, the same way as I did forewarn you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.  On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,  mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.  Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus impaled the flesh together with its passions and desires.

shall we go through the list Jaywill, for i tell you truly, you will find everyone of the works of the flesh in the house of Christendom, where we ourselves do not tolerate it, for we realise that God is holy and expects his people to be full of Holy acts of Godly devotion.

i readily admit that there are some fine individuals within the realms of Christendom, but for the most part she stands condemned! not by me, but by the scriptures and her own actions. What does Christ state in the book of revelation with regard to her?

(Revelation 18:4-5) . . .“Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
its quite simple really, i do not hold that those who are termed Christians, really are Christians, otherwise they would not have engaged in those wicked works. Christ states, 'by their fruits you shall know those men', does he not? shall we list the ways in which Christendom has abandoned the teachings of the Bible? shall we? Secondly the Holy s ...[text shortened]... for the most part she stands condemned! not by me, but by the scriptures and her own actions.

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its quite simple really, i do not hold that those who are termed Christians, really are Christians, otherwise they would not have engaged in those wicked works. Christ states, 'by their fruits you shall know those men', does he not?
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Why should those who overcome be made to "fess up" and feel shame on behalf of those who boere rotten fruit, whether they be immaturee Christians or false Christians ?

Christ said "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches" seven times. Why should those who have an ear to hear the Spirit feel ashamed for those who would not hear the Spirit ?

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shall we list the ways in which Christendom has abandoned the teachings of the Bible? shall we?
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Am I a defender of Christiandom ?

You are ignorant of the Lord's prophesies. Have you not read the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13:24-30 ? Why should you bring accusation against the wheat for the tares that were sown by the enemy ?

In the explanation of the parable Jesus says "the field is the world" (13:38). Am I defending "the world"? He did not say that the field was the CHURCH. He said the field where the tares and the wheat are growing together is the WORLD.

Only if I maintained that the WORLD and the CHURCH are identical, then you might have ground to rebuke me for defending the WORLD. Before you came along as a Johnny Come Lately to point out the rotten fruit of the tares, Jesus already warned His disciples that in the world, false Christians and true ones would grow together.

Let us set the false ones aside and speak of true Christians who have brought disrepute to the Lord's name. Sometimes even I myself brought disrepute to His name. There are people who saw me behave badly as a Christian. I did not always overcome. And I did not always bear fruit to God.

DID YOU NOT READ ? "A righteous man falls seven times and rises up again ..." (Prov. 24:16)

The Roman Christians that Paul wrote to were at various levels of maturity. I am sure all were not always spipritually victorious all the time. Yet the Apostle writes:

"WHO shall bring a charge against God's chosen ones? It is God who justifies. WHO is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died and, rather, who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also interceds for us.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ ? Shall tribulation or anguish or persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword? ... For I am persuaded tht neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities nor things present nor things to come nor powers, nor height nor depth nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (See Roam 8:33-39)

So you see Robbie, not popes, not crusades, not Ku Klux Klans, not religious right, not Catholic Church, not Protestantism, not YMCA, not America, not Elmer Gantry, not Billy Sunday, not Tammy Faye or TV evangelists, not height or depth or angels or things today or things in the future or things to come or prinicipalities or ANY OTHER CREATURE shall be able to separate us from the victorious unseperable love of God in Christ Jesus.

The gates of Hades may TRY to prevail against the church. But the gates of Hades will not prevail against His builded church.

The church of Christ is glorious. And I feel victorious and gloriuous to be a part of her. So you go back to the Kingdom Hall and tell your teachers that I said that the church of Christ is glorious. And the overcomers are here.


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Secondly the Holy spirit cannot be present among such a thoroughly wicked throng, for its has its fruit in peace and righteousness, not in strife, envies and killing. =================================

In each of the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3 there were problems. Only Philadelphia is praised fully. Perhaps Smyrna is also not rebuked. But all the rest have some kind of problem to overcome. They do not all have the same problems. But they all have some kind of situation that calls for the victorious to overcome.

The lowest one is Thyatira (Rev. 2:18-29) Even she has "the deep things of Satan" as "they" say - (they are not deep to the Lord's piercing eyes). Yet even in Thyatira there is a call for the overcomers to rise to the normal level of grace and prevail in the Christian walk.

The Holy Spirit was speaking to each church, even the church in Thyatira as low as she had fallen. Therefore the Holy Spirit did not forsake these churches completely but in each warned for those who had an ear to HEAR what the Spirit was speaking.


It is logical then that some would hear and some would not. And those who hear and avail themselves of the Lord's grace were those who overcame. And they will be rewarded in addition to having eternal life.

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(Galatians 5:19-24) . . .Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning you, the same way as I did forewarn you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom. On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus impaled the flesh together with its passions and desires.
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So what ?

Is there a call to make Jesus an angel, the Holy Spirit an unliving force, and the Word another God because of these things ?

These warnings show Christians what will exclude them from particpation in the coming manifestation of the kingdom of God in the millennium. In other words to be overcome by these works of the flesh is to be defeated. And to put them to death through the power of the Holy Spirit is to overcome.

This passage is basically saying the same thing the seven letters to the seven churches are saying in Revelation 2 and 3. It matters, in terms of reward, if the Christian is defeated or overcoming in her daily walk.

I think it's a bit unreasonable to describe "Christendom" as some monolithic organization. That would mean you are responsible for these crimes, robbie! The fact is that there are all kinds of different Christian organizations that have split off from each other in protest of other churchs' doctrines and actions.

Same thing with Islam.