05 Nov 12
3 edits
Originally posted by Proper KnobSorry side side show Mel, you will need to be more explicit, what do you mean,
Here's your chance Rob to give answers to the 'side show' questions that you refused to answer in the other thread.
You have stated quite clearly that 'True Christians®' shouldn't involve themselves with civil government, so how should/would a society of True Christians function?
function? are you talking about the structure? are you talking about the prevalent
attitudes? It appears to me that the Bible itself gives scant details but one can deduce
certain criteria, for example, there would be no war, no racism, no political strife, no
ethnic strife and probably no money, all things being held in common. There would be
no crime and thus the need for policemen would be non existent and thus no
locksmiths. One can of course look at the early christian congregations and see a
structure, if that is what you mean. Once again, i must profess my reticence about
purely speculative and hypothetical scenarios, i am a practical man and my currency is
empirical evidence, not self certified opinions.
05 Nov 12
1 edit
Originally posted by Proper Knobwhat i actually sated was that there was certain principles which would conflict with a
Here's your chance Rob to give answers to the 'side show' questions that you refused to answer in the other thread.
You have stated quite clearly that 'True Christians®' shouldn't involve themselves with civil government, so how should/would a society of True Christians function?
Christians ability to serve in civil government, this of course does not extend to lollipop
ladies, road sweepers and the men who collect our rubbish, who should be paid far
more than they are in my opinion, for helping children across the road, picking up litter
and making sure the environment is safe are admirable, one could however, not be the
minister for defence, for war is quite out of the question.
05 Nov 12
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobiePublic health, justice, education, infrastructure, resource management or environmental safeguards will do to start. All of the above (a nod to FMF for them) are ran by 'civil government' in our social democracy, how would the above be run in a society of 'True Christians' if 'True Christians' are to be politically neutral and not part of civil government?
Sorry side side show Mel, you will need to be more explicit, what do you mean,
function? are you talking about the structure? are you talking about the prevalent
attitudes? It appears to me that the Bible itself gives scant details but one can deduce
certain criteria, for example, there would be no war. One can of course look at the
early c ...[text shortened]... rios,
i am a practical man and my currency is empirical evidence, not self certified opinions.
05 Nov 12
1 edit
Originally posted by Proper KnobOnce again you are making an oversimplification, i know a Christian sister who is a
Public health, justice, education, infrastructure, resource management or environmental safeguards will do to start. All of the above (a nod to FMF for them) are ran by 'civil government' in our social democracy, how would the above be run in a society of 'True Christians' if 'True Christians' are to be politically neutral and not part of civil government?
midwife, another who is a doctor (psychiatric), another who is a teacher, clearly non of
these positions conflict with a Christians ability to serve in some capacity the civil
government. It would however be quite difficult to maintain a clean conscience and be
involved even as a secretary in the army, wouldn't it, for one is telling other people to
'beat their swords into ploughshares', and then hypocritically working in an
environment whose purpose is to train for war. One could be a fireman i reckon,
although one would need to weight the dangers associated and make a conscience
based decision on the sanctity of life. So once again it appears to me to be a failure on
you and the other sideshow acts, to understand that a christians decision is based upon
certain principles which may conflict with his or her ability to serve in civil government.
05 Nov 12
Originally posted by Proper Knobthere is a brother in my congregation, from Bolton who has a degree in environmental
Public health, justice, education, infrastructure, resource management or environmental safeguards will do to start. All of the above (a nod to FMF for them) are ran by 'civil government' in our social democracy, how would the above be run in a society of 'True Christians' if 'True Christians' are to be politically neutral and not part of civil government?
management, please tell the forum how his chosen field of expertise conflicts with his
ability to serve as a Christian and in the capacity that he trained for?
05 Nov 12
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou've missed the point. I'm not talking about being a 'civil servant', i'm talking about 'civil government'.
Once again you are making an oversimplification, i know a Christian sister who is a
midwife, another who is a doctor (psychiatric), another who is a teacher, clearly non of
these positions conflict with a Christians ability to serve in some capacity the civil
government. It would however be quite difficult to maintain a clean conscience and be
certain principles which may conflict with his or her ability to serve in civil government.
Let's take your midwife for example, working in the NHS (?) her day to day job wouldn't conflict with her Christian principles. But what about the running of the hospital? What about the running of the the NHS trust she works for? What about the running of the whole public health infrastructure for the entire country? How would those infrastructures be run by people who are to be politically neutral when the running of those infrastructures is political by their very nature. That's the point i'm getting at. How would these structures be run by True Christians?
05 Nov 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYour slipping down another path side-show Bob, keep on track here.
there is a brother in my congregation, from Bolton who has a degree in environmental
management, please tell the forum how his chosen field of expertise conflicts with his
ability to serve as a Christian and in the capacity that he trained for?
05 Nov 12
Originally posted by Proper Knobfirst of all, are you talking of a society in which everyone, as you put it, is a true
You've missed the point. I'm not talking about being a 'civil servant', i'm talking about 'civil government'.
Let's take your midwife for example, working in the NHS (?) her day to day job wouldn't conflict with her Christian principles. But what about the running of the hospital? What about the running of the the NHS trust she works for? What about ...[text shortened]... he point i'm getting at. How would these structures be run by True Christians?
christian, I presume, for you have not been very specific, if so then there is no need to
consider anything other than her ability for all christians will understand what is
acceptable practice and what is not according to a Biblical understanding of certain
principles, those in dispute can be studied and a consensus reached, if on the other
hand you are talking of a society where she as a true christian must work with non
christians, she would need to weigh up her duties within herself and weigh them against
a christian conscience and to see if she could, conscientiously render her services, for
as i have explained, society imposes upon christians certain principles which may
conflict with that ability to serve.
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05 Nov 12
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI believe in your initial reply to this thread, the scenario was a society composed entirely of "true Christians." Building logically on what you said, I draw two conclusions from what you now say here:
first of all, are you talking of a society in which everyone, as you put it, is a true
christian, I presume, for you have not been very specific, if so then there is no need to
consider anything other than her ability for all christians will understand what is
acceptable practice and what is not according to a Biblical understanding of certain ...[text shortened]... iety imposes upon christians certain principles which may
conflict with that ability to serve.
1. In a 100% true Christian society, there would be no such distinction as "pubic sector" (government) and "private sector." Everything that needed to be done would be worked out within the society cooperatively. One could say of it that government dissolves into private society, or one could say the opposite of that; and it would be unimportant what was said of it.
2. If there were some members of the society who were not true Christians and if they were treated differently in basic matters of, for example, health care, then I see some significant issues that might call for government, where "government" means,among other things, definition and regulation of the relationship between members of the two groups; the true Christians and the "others". But the non-involvement of the true Christians in government, even if they were a majority, would mean that the government would be made up of the "others." And those "others" will not always act the way they would if they were "true Christians."
So I conclude that in a mixed society that is not 100% true Christians the "true Christians" by their non-involvement, will be governed by the "others". This is not a claim, it is a logical conclusion. Please assess the logic.
05 Nov 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobieLol. I've heard many say about the Witnesses " If all believed like you people, the world would fall apart". What? Did you just hear what you said? Well if the whole world believed like us, that would be great I'd say. No wars, rapist, no thieves, no murder, no stealing ones wife or possesions, no ruining of the earth for $$$$ gain. Loving all our neighbors and the list goes on as well as no governments as we would all let Jehovah and his son Jesus rule us.
first of all, are you talking of a society in which everyone, as you put it, is a true
christian, I presume, for you have not been very specific, if so then there is no need to
consider anything other than her ability for all christians will understand what is
acceptable practice and what is not according to a Biblical understanding of certain ...[text shortened]... iety imposes upon christians certain principles which may
conflict with that ability to serve.
Not bad I'd say....
05 Nov 12
Originally posted by JS357From my viewpoint, yes you are correct. The non Christians could and probably would become the ones in charge and the cycle would start over again.
I believe in your initial reply to this thread, the scenario was a society composed entirely of "true Christians." Building logically on what you said, I draw two conclusions from what you now say here:
1. In a 100% true Christian society, there would be no such distinction as "pubic sector" (government) and "private sector." Everything that needed to be do ...[text shortened]... ". This is not a claim, it is a logical conclusion. Please assess the logic.
And as far as that goes under the imperfect state that all of mankind is under now many of the Christian faith would no doubt do the same as we have seen all throught history.
Many religios leaders have emposed much hardship and pain to their own members in order to rule them.
So this is where we need God to step in and take over which he has promissed in the Bible to do soon. Then his son Jesus will rule for a time period until the earth and mankind has been cleanzed of all badness and the planet will once again be the paradise God intended it to be.
05 Nov 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobiefirst of all, are you talking of a society in which everyone, as you put it, is a true
first of all, are you talking of a society in which everyone, as you put it, is a true
christian, I presume, for you have not been very specific, if so then there is no need to
consider anything other than her ability for all christians will understand what is
acceptable practice and what is not according to a Biblical understanding of certain ...[text shortened]... iety imposes upon christians certain principles which may
conflict with that ability to serve.
christian
Correct. How would a society of True Christians function? That was my OP.
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05 Nov 12
Originally posted by galveston75Yes, history shows that there needs to be an intervention from outside, to overturn a self-perpetuating government or form of government.
From my viewpoint, yes you are correct. The non Christians could and probably would become the ones in charge and the cycle would start over again.
And as far as that goes under the imperfect state that all of mankind is under now many of the Christian faith would no doubt do the same as we have seen all throught history.
Many religios leaders have ...[text shortened]... en cleanzed of all badness and the planet will once again be the paradise God intended it to be.