Christs parables

Actually, at this time, there is no such place, other than the small town of Hell, Michigan, which, by the way, has, on occasion, frozen over. But it hardly meets the description of the “Hell” that is propounded by so many Christians who erroneously believe that it is a place of everlasting fire where the “living dead” (???) are tormented forever in flames.
Also, the word “hell” is not found anywhere in the original text of Scripture. In the King James Version, you will find it as the translation of the Greek words hades andgehenna, but most modern translations recognize that “hell” is an incorrect translation for hades, and more correctly render it as “grave.” Even modern translations, however, do sometimes mistakenly translate the Greek word gehenna as “hell.”
So how did the word “hell” so permeate our culture? In this relatively brief answer, we refer you to some other resources that will clearly show you, in detail, just what the Word of God says about this most significant issue. Our book, Is There Death After Life?, sets forth what the Word says about death and its aftermath, while The Fire That Consumes, by Edward Fudge (211 pp), is a very thorough exposition of “conditional immortality,” including the origin of the idea of “hell” as a place of everlasting torment for the wicked. We also have a free online seminar called Death & Resurrection to Life.
One of Satan’s ploys to make Christianity look foolish is to introduce ridiculous ideas (that is, ideas that can legitimately be ridiculed because they make no sense) into its theology. In regard to this overall subject, here are two such errors that came into Christianity from Hellenistic (Greek) thought:
• There is no such thing as actual “death” (defined in just about any dictionary as “the end, or absence, of life&rdquo😉.
• When one “dies,” he then lives on in some conscious, incorporeal form called the “soul” or “spirit.”
The lie that man is deathless (introduced by the Devil in Genesis 3:4 and later believed by the Greeks) spawned the corresponding notion that there must be an eternal residence for good people and another address for bad people. Thus arose the following falsehoods:
• A dead person goes either to “heaven” or “hell” and stays there forever.
• “Hell” is a place of everlasting torment in flames.
• Fire is a preservative (who else believes this?).
It is ironic that most Christians believe that Adolph Hitler will have everlasting life. You might be thinking: “What?! No they don’t.” But think again—if Hitler is being tormented forever in fire, does he or does he not have everlasting life? It’s a crummy life, but it is everlasting life, right? On the contrary, Romans 6:23 says: “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” God never says that the wages of sin is eternal torment. No, He says that the penalty for sin is an end to one’s life.
It is important to realize that no verse in the Bible says that the “soul” or “spirit” lives on by itself. No verse says that “hell” is a place of everlasting torment in fire. These falsehoods originated with God’s archenemy, and infiltrated Christianity via mistranslation and the mixing of Greek culture and beliefs with the truths presented in the Word of God.
Thinking logically, does it seem fair to you that God, who the Bible says is love, would forever inflict upon wicked people the excruciating agony of constantly burning? Think about it—if “forever” were likened to a feast, 50 million years of torment is a small hors d’oeuvre (appetizer). Wouldn’t most rational thinkers conclude that, even for quintessential bad boys like Hitler or Bin Laden, that is simply not fair? Sure they would. Justice would not be served by such an egregious atrocity, and how sad it is that this erroneous belief has contributed to many people turning away from the God whom they were told would do such a thing.
The late Sidney Hatch well expressed how twisted is the idea of a just God forever tormenting by fire those who refused to believe in Him:
“A civilized society looks with horror upon the abuse and torture of children or adults. Even where capital punishment is practiced, the aim is to implement it as mercifully as possible. Are we to believe then that a holy God—our heavenly Father—is less just than the courts of men? Of course not.”
And the late Swedish Lutheran Bishop John Persone wrote:
“For me it is inexplainable how a person who holds the orthodox view [of eternal torment] can at any time have a glad moment in this life. He is constantly mingling with people whose final destiny will be to be tormented eternally without end…To me it is even more inexplainable that such an ‘orthodox’ person can expect even a happy moment in eternity, when he knows that contemporaneously with his blessed estate continues the endless torment and agony of innumerable millions of the accursed. Can he, if he loves his neighbors as himself, yes, even if he has just a little bit of human love and is not solely a selfish wretch, have even a single happy moment?”
Well said, wouldn’t you agree?
Think for a moment about fire. What does it do to things it touches? What do you do if you come home and discover that your house is on fire? Do you feel any sense of urgency? Or do you say, “Hey, let’s go to a movie, and when we get back, we’ll call the Fire Department. There’s no hurry, because we know that our home will burnforever.” Nothing burns forever, and a simple word study of “fire” in Scripture shows that its primary purpose is to destroy useless things, like chaff, and evil things, like wicked people, evil spirits, and Satan (Malachi 4:1 is a classic example).

This article about “hell” is not the place to exposit the biblical truth that death is the end of life, and that one who dies no longer exists anywhere in any form. That by itself renders fallacious the notion that “hell” is a place where “dead” people are alive and conscious. In His Word, God artfully chose the metaphor of “sleep” to figuratively describe death. Why? Because sleep is a temporary condition of unconsciousness that ends with an awakening. Ditto for death, for one who believes in Jesus Christ.
Where there is no consciousness, there is no awareness of time passing. Therefore, the Apostle Paul’s next conscious thought will be when he sees the face of the Lord Jesus at his appearing. Until that glorious moment, Paul, like all who have died and “returned to dust,” no longer exists. Nor will he ever exist again unless Jesus Christ actually died, rose from the dead, ascended to heaven, and comes again to raise Christians who have died. 1 Thessalonians 4:18 says that this truth is the only basis for genuine comfort for the bereaved. How important is this subject? It’s a matter of life and death.
In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word sheol means “the state, or place, of the dead,” and is usually translated as “grave” (see Ps. 6:5, 16:10, 49:15, 89:48, et al). Because there is not literally any such place, it could also be translated as “gravedom.” The Hebrews recognized that man is an integrated being who is either alive or dead (to us, this is obvious). They understood that man does not have a soul, but rather that, as per Genesis 2:7, man is a living “soul” (nephesh), that is, a living person. When he dies, he is then a dead soul (e.g., Lev. 19:28, 21:1; Num. 5:2, 6:6, 11), that is, a dead person.
In contrast to the teaching of the Old Testament, most Greeks believed that man has “an immortal soul,” which they saw as the non-corporeal essence of his being that was trapped in the temporal, fleshly prison of his body until the wonderful moment when his body “died” and his “soul” could freely wing its way to Mt. Olympus, the land of Shades, or somewhere else.
Because of this belief, the Greeks had no word that corresponded with the idea expressed by the Hebrew word sheol. The closest thing they could find was hades, and that is what those who produced the Septuagint (a translation of the Old Testament from Hebrew to Greek) chose as the counterpart to sheol. As they do with sheol in the Old Testament, some English versions of the Bible erroneously translate the Greek word hades as “hell” in the New Testament [For a thorough examination of the meaning of sheoland hades, see the word “hell” in E.W. Bullinger’s A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament (Zondervan Pub. Co., Grand Rapids MI)].
The impact of translating sheol as hades cannot be overstated. In sheol, everyone is dead, but in the Greek language and culture, everyone in Hades is alive. Thus, by the stroke of the pen of the Septuagint’s translators, all the dead (in sheol) were granted life after death in hades. The Greek-speaking Hebrews, reading their Greek Bible, would naturally come to believe that “the dead are alive” (it was, after all, in their Bible). This explains why, at the time of Jesus, many Jews believed that the souls of the dead lived on after the person died, and why Jesus would speak a parable springboarding off that belief (Lazarus in “Abraham’s bosom” – Luke 16. For a full explanation of this, see “Difficult Scriptures Explained.”
We should note that the English word “hell” comes from an Old English word meaning “to conceal.” The first definition in Webster’s Third New International Dictionary is “a place or state of the dead or of the damned; usually under the ground” (hence, the idea of “concealed&rdquo😉. The second definition is “a place or state of misery, torment, or wickedness.”
The idea that “hell” is a place of eternal torment came about because the word hades carried with it all the connotation of Greek mythology, in which Hades was the god of the underworld, a place where the souls of dead people went to be tormented. As Bullinger writes in Appendix 131 of The Companion Bible:
“The Old Testament is the fountainhead of the Hebrew language. It has no literature behind it. But the case is entirely different with the Greek language. The Hebrew sheol is divine in its origin and usage. The Greek hades is human in its origin and comes down to us laden with centuries of development, in which it has acquired new senses, meanings, and usages.”
Scripture most certainly does speak of a place of fire where wicked people will be “punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord” (2 Thess. 1:9). This is gehenna, a Greek word that the Gospel writers used in reference to what is elsewhere called “the lake of fire.” It is significant that not only wicked people will be destroyed there, but also “death and the grave” will be forever exterminated (see Rev. 20:12-15).
Gehenna is the Greek word for the Hebrew “valley of Hinnom,” which was the city dump outside of Jerusalem. When Jesus used this word to refer to the place of the future destruction of the wicked (e.g., Matt. 10:28—still erroneously translated as “hell” even in modern Bible versions), all who heard him knew exactly what he meant. As the note on Matthew 5:22 in the NIV Study Bible says:
“The Greek word is gehenna, which derives its name from a deep ravine south of Jerusalem, the ‘valley of Hinnom.’ During the reigns of the wicked Ahaz and Manasseh, human sacrifices to the Ammonite god Molech were offered there. Josiah desecrated the valley because of the pagan worship there (2 Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31, 32; 19:6). It became a sort of perpetually burning city dump and later a figure for the place of final punishment.”
As Edward Fudge points out in The Fire That Consumes:
“New Testament writers chose the word gehenna to describe the fate of the lost only in the Gospels, speaking only to Jews, and only when addressing people familiar with the geography of Jerusalem.”

The lake of fire is also called “the second death” (Rev. 21:8). What does that mean? God’s Word clearly states that the Lord Jesus Christ will raise from the dead everyone who has ever lived, and that “those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned” (John 5:29). Pending that Adolph Hitler or Saddam Hussein had no “deathbed conversion,” they will one day face the Lord Jesus to account for their evil ways, and after that be cast into the lake of fire to be annihilated. They died once physically, and they will “die” again—forever out of existence.
Do you think that those listening to Jesus speak of the wicked burning in gehenna thought he meant they would burn forever? Of course not, because they knew that the garbage they took to the city dump did not continue to exist in the fire without being consumed. Rather, it burned up, and was gone. Jesus used the word gehenna to illustrate that the wicked were like the garbage, refuse worthy only of destruction. The only reason the fire continued to burn was because the whole city kept throwing their garbage there. Likewise, when it has done its job, the lake of fire will be no more.
If Revelation 20:10 is coming to your mind as an apparent contradiction to what you have read thus far, that’s great—it should. It speaks of the Devil and a couple of his henchman being thrown in the lake of fire and being “tormented day and night forever and ever.” However, the Bible was not written in English, and when we dig a bit deeper, we see that “forever and ever” in the Greek is more accurately “for ages unto ages.” In keeping with God’s decree in Genesis 3:15 that Jesus would eventually “crush the head” of the Devil (that is, destroy him), Ezekiel 28:18 declares that the Devil will be “brought to ashes.” Apparently, as a fitting recompense for his monstrous evil, this will take a long time.
Some Christians argue that annihilation is not a sufficient threat to stop people, and that the threat of burning forever is a more effective deterrent to sin. However, this is looking at Scripture the wrong way. God says that it is His “kindness” that leads people to repentance (Rom. 2:4), not His threats of death, although that might work, because it is programmed within mankind to do whatever it takes to stay alive. Apparently, the thought of not existing is more terrifying to most people than the thought of living even under horrible conditions. What God does do is set forth His great love in giving His Son, and encourage people to believe in him and have everlasting life.
If God were trying to use the threat of eternal torment as a deterrent to sin, John 3:16 might read: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not burn forever, but have everlasting life.” And God could have made that plain in many other verses as well. The fact that the Bible simply says “perish” indicates that the unsaved will die, and thus exist no more. What faces those who refuse God’s gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ is annihilation. They will be terminated, gone—history. And the rest of us, because of the grace of God and the work of Jesus Christ, will live happily ever after.
For those who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, he has paid the price for their sin, and he will give them the gift of life in the age to come. Those who refuse to believe in him will pay the penalty for sin themselves. How? By dying forever in the lake of fire. Everlasting life is just that—life without end, and everlasting death is destruction without hope of recall—permanent extermination. This is God’s perfect justice, and it is definitely a matter of life and death.

http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=455

One of Satan’s ploys to make Christianity look foolish is to introduce ridiculous ideas (that is, ideas that can legitimately be ridiculed because they make no sense) into its theology. In regard to this overall subject, here are two such errors that came into Christianity from Hellenistic (Greek) thought:

Matthew 25:41,46 - "Then He will say to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. "(v.41)

"And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (v.46)

Which one of these verses or which words in either of these verses are Satan's ploy to make my Christian faith look foolish ?

Which of these verses is Satan introducing "ridiculous ideas" into my Christian faith ?

Originally posted by sonship

One of Satan’s ploys to make Christianity look foolish is to introduce ridiculous ideas (that is, ideas that can legitimately be ridiculed because they make no sense) into its theology. In regard to this overall subject, here are two such errors that came into Christianity from Hellenistic (Greek) thought:

Matthew 25:41,46 - [b]"Then He Which of these verses is Satan introducing "ridiculous ideas" into my Christian faith ?

how about construing that the common grave of mankind is a fiery place of torment, that might be a nice place to start.

One of Satan’s ploys to make Christianity look foolish is to introduce ridiculous ideas (that is, ideas that can legitimately be ridiculed because they make no sense) into its theology. In regard to this overall subject, here are two such errors that came into Christianity from Hellenistic (Greek) thought:

Checkbaiter, if a Christian concept is ridiculed and denounced as foolish by the world, is that proof that it is the result of Satan's ploy to introduce the ridiculous ?

I know some people who ridicule the idea of the Son of God coming by incarnation. Does that ridicule prove that the Son of God in the Bible is a Satanic ploy to introduce the ridiculous?

I know some who ridicule the resurrection of Christ from the dead. Is that proof of a ploy of Satan to introduce the ridiculous to derail the Christian gospel ?

I know some who ridicule the redemptive act of Christ on the cross of Calvary. Is that proof that redemption is a ploy of Satan to make the Gospel look ridiculous to the world ?

how about construing that the common grave of mankind is a fiery place of torment, that might be a nice place to start.

How about I go by what the Bible says and not by mere popular and traditional vernacular ?

If the rich man died and was buried and lifted up his eyes in Hades being in torment, at least the part of Hades where he was was a place of punishing suffering.

This does not have to mean that the entire Hades is such a place.

Try again.

Originally posted by sonship

One of Satan’s ploys to make Christianity look foolish is to introduce ridiculous ideas (that is, ideas that can legitimately be ridiculed because they make no sense) into its theology. In regard to this overall subject, here are two such errors that came into Christianity from Hellenistic (Greek) thought:

Checkbaiter, if a Christian conce ...[text shortened]... that proof that redemption is a ploy of Satan to make the Gospel look ridiculous to the world ?

No, it is not proof, but a good indication, because unbelievers cannot understand spiritual matters.
What is your point?
Yes, I have heard much ridicule from unbelievers on all these things, but
eternal torment has been ridiculed quite a bit.
Satan has done a wonderful job thus far. He has even fooled many Christians.

Originally posted by sonship

how about construing that the common grave of mankind is a fiery place of torment, that might be a nice place to start.

How about I go by what the Bible says and not by mere popular and traditional vernacular ?

If the rich man died and was buried and lifted up his eyes in Hades being in torment, at least the part of Hades where he was ...[text shortened]... suffering.

This does not have to mean that the entire Hades is such a place.

Try again.

If you went by what the Bible actually say you would not perpetuate the gross distortion that the common grave of mankind is a place of literal torment, the wages of sin is death, not everlasting torment. If you went by what the Bible actually says, you would not have created a caricature of God as a sadistic torturer. If you went by what the Bible says, you would not be trying to use a parable (a fabricated story) in an attempt to state that it is to be taken literally in order to support a pagan doctrine.

No, it is not proof, but a good indication, because unbelievers cannot understand spiritual matters.
What is your point?

Your three posts were very long. I think it must have been a paste. And I did not read the entire three posts, yet.

So I thought to first eliminate the weakest argument. And that is the insinuation that ridicule from the world indicates Satan's ploy to make the Gospel appear foolish.

I assure you that much of the world considers the major truths of the Gospel to be foolish.

So I do not discard the concept of eternal punishment on those grounds any more than I would discard the incarnation of God as Christ or His redemptive death and grave defying resurrection.

Yes, I have heard much ridicule from unbelievers on all these things, but
eternal torment has been ridiculed quite a bit.

And some Christians are buckling under the shame being heaped on them because of quite clear words of the New Testament. Some are distancing themselves from the teaching hoping that a gentlier and kinder Righteous Judge will put them in more favor.

Firstly, I don't think the world will embrace us because we are ashamed of the words of Jesus. I think instead they will perceive our wishy washy hesitance.

Secondly, all things considered, God in the Bible is quite just enough, merciful enough, longsuffering enough, knowledgeable enough. He need not our improvement which may lead to adding to His words or taking away from His words. We simply need to be even and encompass the full revelation of God in the Bible.

As I wrote to you before, Paul told Timothy to teach all that Paul had passed on to him without partiality. That means don't have your favorite part of the whole teaching to the exclusion of less desired portions.

"I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the chosen angels that you keep these things without prejudice, doing nothing by way of partiality." ( 1 Timothy 5:21)

I think a servant of God may have to go to God in prayer, sometimes pouring out his or her heart, confessing that they want to be partial. They need to deal with God about the prejudice in their soul.

Satan has done a wonderful job thus far. He has even fooled many Christians.

But we do not throw out the baby with the bath water because of that.

And up until now, I did not see you explain WHICH words in the verses I submitted were the Satanic ones. I think you know that all the words were spoken by the Lord Jesus Christ. Read His word again.

"Go away from Me, you who are cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (v.41)

"And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (v.46)

These are the words of the Lord Jesus Christ. Are you ashamed of being ridiculed because you believe them ? Or maybe you do not believe them?

If you went by what the Bible actually say you would not perpetuate the gross distortion that the common grave of mankind is a place of literal torment,

You are not paying attention. I am committed to helping people understand the Bible's teaching. And I just showed you that the common grave of mankind is not ALL a place of literal torment. But where that rich man went WAS.

Samuel, on the other hand, came up from your "common grave" of Sheol and complained to the Saul, about his rest being disturbed. Obviously for Samuel [in Hades] the dead prophet, his soul was at rest and not being tormented.

So why should I believe the entire Hades or Sheol or Hell be a place of torment ? Is it my fault that the many people have the mistaken idea as far as the Bible's revelation is concerned?

As we discuss the matter, I enlighten them to a more accurate understanding of the word of God.

Samuel was dead and in Hades and was not being tormented.
The rich man in Jesus's teaching was in Hades and was being tormented.

Try again. No.
Don't try again.
Believe the Bible's fuller revelation on the matter and come to the Lord Jesus for assurance of safety and salvation. Do that.

the wages of sin is death, not everlasting torment.

The wages of sin being death DOES NOT make everlasting torment impossible.

The result of not having one's name recorded in the book of life is to be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:15). The wages of sin being death did not make it impossible for these at the great white throne judgment that they should go to the lake of fire. Did it ?

So your understanding is deficient if you think the wages for sin being death nullifies all possibility of Revelation 20:15 being fulfilled.

If you went by what the Bible actually says, you would not have created a caricature of God as a sadistic torturer.

So these words spoken by Jesus prove that the Son of God created a caricature of a sadistic torturer God ?

"Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (v.41)

"And these shall go away into eternal punishment ..." (v.46a)

So these words make Jesus guilty of teaching a sadistic torturer ?

YES or NO ?

If you went by what the Bible says, you would not be trying to use a parable (a fabricated story) in an attempt to state that it is to be taken literally in order to support a pagan doctrine.

I will not be repeating to you ad infinitum. But for the sake of those reading along this thread, in no parable of Jesus does He ever mention a man's name specifically.

He mentions the name of Lazarus. The weight of evidence that this was not a parable but something that He knew had occurred.

AND if it is not possible to occur then Jesus Christ was unrighteous to teach it even in a parable. It would be unrighteous for Him to warn us of punishment in a burning flame after being BURIED and going to Hades, if such could never happen.

So was Jesus unrighteous to teach what He did in Luke 16 whether parable or not parable ?

YES or NO ?

Sonship, first know, that I have a great deal of admiration for you and Robbie, and many others who post here. You seem to love the Lord and I respect your position on this topic.
You say over and over that you adhere to what the bible says, so having said that, I submit that the bible very strongly supports the idea of annihilation.
Lets start with the Old Testament...
Ps 37:10

10 A little while, and the wicked will be no more;
though you look for them, they will not be found.
NIV

Prov 10:25

25 When the storm has swept by, the wicked are gone,
but the righteous stand firm forever.
NIV
The bible clearly states they are GONE, and cannot be found. If one were to look in Gehenna, then they could be found, would they not?

Ps 92:7
7 that though the wicked spring up like grass
and all evildoers flourish,
they will be forever destroyed.
NIV

Ps 145:20
20 The Lord watches over all who love him,
but all the wicked he will destroy.
NIV

Ezek 18:3-4

3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son — both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.
NIV

Ezek 18:20
0 The soul who sins is the one who will die.
NIV
Clearly we see they will be DESTROYED, they DIE. There are many, many verses like these. I cannot list them all.
Here are a few more...
Ps 1:6

6 For the Lord watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked will perish.
NIV

Isa 41:11-12
"All who rage against you
will surely be ashamed and disgraced;
those who oppose you
will be as nothing and perish.
12 Though you search for your enemies,
you will not find them.
Those who wage war against you
will be as nothing at all.
NIV

Isa 51:8
8 For the moth will eat them up like a garment;
the worm will devour them like wool.
But my righteousness will last forever,
my salvation through all generations."
NIV

What happens when a moth eats wool or a garment? It is GONE.

Nah 1:10
10 They will be entangled among thorns
and drunk from their wine;
they will be consumed like dry stubble.
NIV

What is stubble? Hay. What happens when it burns? It is GONE.

Ps 37:20

20 But the wicked will perish:
The Lord's enemies will be like the beauty of the fields,
they will vanish — vanish like smoke.
NIV

"Vanish like smoke", not burn forever..

Mal 4:1-3

4 "Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire," says the Lord Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and leap like calves released from the stall. 3 Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things," says the Lord Almighty.
NIV

These are not parables, they are facts in the bible.

Now, does this theme change in the New Testament? No, it does not as you can see...
Matt 7:19-20
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
NIV

Matt 13:40-41

40 "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
NIV

Matt 3:12
2 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
NIV

John 15:6-7
If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
NIV

Notice that it is the Fire that is unquenchable, not the content in it.

Now, I also know that there are verses like...

Rev 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
NIV

Here is the same verse from Young's Literal Translation..

Rev 20:10

10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night — to the ages of the ages.
YLT

I admit, that even YLT CAN mean burn forever and ever, BUT IT DOES NOT HAVE TO.
As a student of the bible, I have to first look at the CLEAR verses and then prayerfully and studiously look at the difficult verses.

I understand your position and I respect it, I really do. But I hope you are still open to new ideas that can be shown biblically, of course.
There are many positions I once held that were in essence traditional, as I look back. I suppose humbleness of mind, a very simple truth, led me to realize that there is much for me to learn, and I do not know every thing.
I am not saying you are not humble, that is for your introspection, I speak of myself.

Its like a textathon i am exhausted simply reading all the reams 🙂

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Its like a textathon i am exhausted simply reading all the reams 🙂

Sometimes it is needed....🙂

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Sometimes it is needed....🙂

yes, even water, if it drips with constancy can make a hole in a large rock.