Originally posted by Rajk999Luke 18:18
You need to stop listening to the rubbish being taught in many churches and read and follow the words of Christ. Do you understand what CHrist said here :
Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, f ...[text shortened]... o the kingdom of God!
You are so far removed from the teachings of Christ its not funny.
"18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
Did you sell everything you owned, do you own anything now? He was talking
to a specific person if you take the full conversation in context, a practice I
suggest you start doing. You tend to twist scripture instead of looking at it
in context, no where does it say if you own anything you are sinning! Even
the couple (Ananias, Sapphira) that lied about selling thier things in Acts 5
didn't die due to the fact they owned anything, it was that they lied to God
about what they did with their own! Peter even said that while it was theirs it
was in their power to do whatever they wanted with it.
Acts 5: 3-4
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land? While it remained, did it not remain thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? How is it that thou hast conceived this thing in thy heart? thou has not lied unto men, but unto God.
2 edits
Oh, my!!! Only those of us who have been around here a long time can—I’m not sure that the word “appreciate” gets it at all!—whatever, the fact that Rwingett and Rajk and (a bit more recently in forum history) Galveston and Suzianne—are agreeing with one another!!—on the same side!! (And Robbie’d be there, too, except for his sidebar disagreement with Robb (Rwingett) about communism/socialism.) Robb, you and Raj can both, at least, imagine how stunned I am (both of you being participants here even longer than I). I am dumbfounded!
The world turns
not in circles, but in
spiraling spheres…
and what is wrought,
in those spirals
what is wrought?
I now wander away
into the westward light,
muttering, muttering,
muttering at it all….
Originally posted by vistesdInteresting. Maybe if we communicate for long enough we may find that we have more incommon than not... 🙂
Oh, my!!! Only those of us who have been around here a long time can—I’m not sure that the word “appreciate” gets it at all!—whatever, the fact that Rwingett and Rajk and (a bit more recently in forum history) Galveston and Suzianne—are [b]agreeing with one another!!—on the same side!! (And Robbie’d be there, too, except for his sidebar disagree ...[text shortened]... ht?
I now wander away
into the westward light,
muttering, muttering,
muttering at it all….[/b]
Originally posted by vistesdI've made numerous posts on this topic before. I don't necessarily recall, but I think I may have sided with Rajk and Galveston once or twice in the past. I've agreed with Robbie on several points as well, but his pedantic comments on socialism were a waste of my time. As if he could teach me anything about socialism. Hah!
Oh, my!!! Only those of us who have been around here a long time can—I’m not sure that the word “appreciate” gets it at all!—whatever, the fact that Rwingett and Rajk and (a bit more recently in forum history) Galveston and Suzianne—are [b]agreeing with one another!!—on the same side!! (And Robbie’d be there, too, except for his sidebar disagree ...[text shortened]... ht?
I now wander away
into the westward light,
muttering, muttering,
muttering at it all….[/b]
What are your thoughts on the topic? Was Jesus a proto-socialist, or not? It seems to me that there are a growing number of Christians who realize that the religious right's attempt to recast Jesus as a defender of laissez-faire capitalism is off the mark. The article below is an egregious example of such an attempt. It's the complete inversion of what Jesus had to say, in my opinion:
http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4218179/k.30EF/Bible_Economics_and_Capitalism.htm
Originally posted by rwingettHow is it socialism if God supplies all our needs?
I've made numerous posts on this topic before. I don't necessarily recall, but I think I may have sided with Rajk and Galveston once or twice in the past. I've agreed with Robbie on several points as well, but his pedantic comments on socialism were a waste of my time. As if he could teach me anything about socialism. Hah!
What are your thoughts o ...[text shortened]... http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4218179/k.30EF/Bible_Economics_and_Capitalism.htm
I think you are projecting your own views about socialism on a system of governance, and the supplying of our basic needs, designed by God.
That system, designed by God, can only be described as an absolute theocracy.
Heaven on earth. As it was before the rebellion.
Want to get into the Kingdom? 🙂
Originally posted by josephwGod doesn't do anything. Jesus doesn't do anything. Except act as reminders for what people should do themselves.
How is it socialism if God supplies all our needs?
I think you are projecting your own views about socialism on a system of governance, and the supplying of our basic needs, designed by God.
That system, designed by God, can only be described as an absolute theocracy.
Heaven on earth. As it was before the rebellion.
Want to get into the Kingdom? 🙂
2 edits
Originally posted by rwingettThe truth is you keep clinging to the myth that He didn't walk on water.
Jesus never walked on water. That's one of those myths you keep clinging to.
What makes you think that Jesus can't turn water into wine?
And why the heck haven't we played a game of chess in all these years? We're closely rated! It would be good competition. Especially when I make you feel ill getting trounced. 😉
1 edit
Originally posted by rwingettI feel complimented that you would invite my thoughts on this. You’re a better exegete than I am—at least with regard to the NT (which I don’t deal with at all anymore; and I’m out of practice with the Tanach and my old Talmudic/Hasidic/Kabbalist exegesis).
I've made numerous posts on this topic before. I don't necessarily recall, but I think I may have sided with Rajk and Galveston once or twice in the past. I've agreed with Robbie on several points as well, but his pedantic comments on socialism were a waste of my time. As if he could teach me anything about socialism. Hah!
What are your thoughts o http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4218179/k.30EF/Bible_Economics_and_Capitalism.htm
I would likely bring a bit of an anti-systemic bias to the issue. I nearly always do. Among the Hutterites, too, I would likely be a heretic. I would be a heretic even among all the streams whose core I affirm—Zen Buddhists, non-dualist Vedantists, Taoists, Sufis, non-dualist Christians—because I am not an exclusivist. I am always on the margin, at the “in-between”—but, hopefully, and “in-between” that has some intellectual and spiritual tension, and not a soft ambiguity.
And I have quit trying to say what I think Jesus might have thought—and even said or done.
I used to be a thorough-going labor-type socialist (no great shakes, but I turned down six-figure incomes because I preferred advocating for those who had less, rather than those who had more). After years there (most of my adult life) I also got burnt up (and not just burnt out) by what became a dogmatism (and some unfortunate politics); I was also called a traitor by some, after all those years, when I left—not to go to the “other side”, but simply to leave the arena for a more simplified life. That’s not a grudge; I understand that my ongoing, activist commitment and energy ran out after 20 some years, and others were still running, and I left them (I really did have something that I offered that was not a highly common commodity in the movement; though there was a small network). That’s just so that you know that my general sympathies are still with your position.
I am an anti-dogmatist, perhaps: communalist or individualist dogma. I actually think that “heretic” is a positive role—almost wherever I am.
Not really an answer, but... Be well, old chum.
Originally posted by vistesdChange doesn't come through the political system. The political system is specifically designed to maintain the status quo and blunt the efforts of those seeking change. All the effort and all the money poured into the political system in an attempt to bring about change have been a colossal waste. Change comes from outside the political system. It starts at the grass roots level and works its way up through the system. When the political system embraces any change, it is merely a reflection of a society that has already moved from underneath it.
I feel complimented that you would invite my thoughts on this. You’re a better exegete than I am—at least with regard to the NT (which I don’t deal with at all anymore; and I’m out of practice with the Tanach and my old Talmudic/Hasidic/Kabbalist exegesis).
I would likely bring a bit of an anti-systemic bias to the issue. I nearly always do. Among t ...[text shortened]... ic” is a positive role—almost wherever I am.
Not really an answer, but... Be well, old chum.
The 'socialism' of Jesus is not one that works within the political system. It is one that has no use for the political system whatsoever. It is what Marx derisively called 'utopian socialism.' It is a transformation of society from the bottom up, one person and one community at a time, and not a transformation imposed from the top down by political elites.
The Hutterites (although far from perfect) are the closest contemporary embodiment of this approach. Their recognition that society needs to be changed has not resulted in greater involvement in the political system in an effort to persuade political elites to enact change on their behalf. It has resulted, rather, in a complete abandonment of the political system and the direct refashioning of their society by themselves. Change (or the Kingdom) will not be delivered by Obama, or by some mystical second coming of Jesus. It will come when people take responsibility for their own lives and when they quit being accomplices in the perpetuation of a fallen world. It will come when people make that change, or build that Kingdom themselves, by their own direct involvement.
1 edit
Originally posted by rwingett"Change doesn't come through the political system."
Change doesn't come through the political system. The political system is specifically designed to maintain the status quo and blunt the efforts of those seeking change. All the effort and all the money poured into the political system in an attempt to bring about change have been a colossal waste. Change comes from outside the political system. It starts a people make that change, or build that Kingdom themselves, by their own direct involvement.
First, what change are you referring to? I'm assuming you mean a change from bad to good, right?
Second, "change" obviously has to do with law, no? Chaos is not a system. Law defines how a system functions.
"The political system is specifically designed to maintain the status quo and blunt the efforts of those seeking change."
Yes, when those in power brake the law. In a Republic, such as the one we enjoy here in America, which has become corrupt beyond recognition, one is as free as any other, but because of greed and the lust for dominance and control our "political system" is all but destroyed.
"All the effort and all the money poured into the political system in an attempt to bring about change have been a colossal waste."
Agreed. Power corrupts. There is an effort to centralize control by some very greedy and evil men. Laws are broken. Freedom from control is destroyed.
"Change comes from outside the political system."
Up to a degree. The "political system" here in America, was originally designed to protect and defend it's weakest member, but is now controlled by the international corporations which have rendered "the people" neutered.
"The 'socialism' of Jesus is not one that works within the political system. It is one that has no use for the political system whatsoever. It is what Marx derisively called 'Utopian socialism.' It is a transformation of society from the bottom up, one person and one community at a time, and not a transformation imposed from the top down by political elites."
This paragraph puzzles me somewhat. Are you in agreement with Marx in deriding the "socialism of Jesus"? In the next paragraph you seem to extol its virtues as practiced by the Hutterites.
I don't know what you think is going to happen in this world next, but based on the record, in my opinion, the Hutterites and anyone else who tries to forge a life as autonomous from the powers that be will be assimilated and/or destroyed.
And besides all that I completely disagree with you. 😉
Looks like you're not excepting challenges either. Did you just change that setting in anticipation of my challenge? 😵😉