Dasa - Divine Grace - Islam

Originally posted by RJHinds
Atheists do not even believe in true religion. All religion is false religion to them. They will not admit that evilution is a religious belief or that atheism is a religious belief. So you need to take a new approach if you wish to convert them. They have hardened their hearts so much that it seems to be a near impossible task. All I can do is tell th ...[text shortened]... can't force them to believe. You don't help those efforts by attacking me.

The Instructor

I don't think that Dasa's postings have any appreciable effect on the success of your attempts.

There are many ways you could post which would have a better chance of success than the way you currently do. You have chosen one of the worst ways.

The teacher who blames the pupil is invariably a bad teacher.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Thanks, I'd seen that before. I'm trying to see if Dasa will admit that his own views don't tally with those of his Divine Grace. Looks unlikely so far. 🙂

Proper Knob, aside from your aim with this thread, and since others reading on here might be interested in knowing what A.C. Bhaktibdanta Swami Prabhupada has said about Islam, I am posting selected quotes from the site that both you and I have looked at. I have included only direct quotes, none of the explanatory commentary; nor have I added any discussion of my own. Readers can read the whole compendium here: http://www.harekrsna.de/artikel/islam.htm.

For those who might be further interested in the teachings of the Hare Krishna Movement, and might want to explore the whole site, they can click here: http://www.harekrsna.de/eng-home.htm (this is the English version).

______________________________________________________

Select quotes on Islam by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada on Islam

Islam is also Vaishnavism.

Then Islam is Vaishnava dharma (religion) in a crude form like Christianity.

Although Muhammad and Jesus Christ appeared in the Kali Yuga (the present age of quarrel and hypocrisy) their instruction is as it is because the persons to whom they had to speak could not understand any more and they find it difficult to understand even that much. (Letter 19/07/70)

Just like in your country there is the Bible or any other scripture. We have got the Vedas. The Muslims, they have got the Qur'an. These scriptures can help also because they are also authority. But you will find that one scripture is differing from other scriptures in some details. Of course, on average there is no difference. (Lecture, 25/04/69)

According to the climate, according to the population, according to the country, there are different books of knowledge. Just like in India the books of knowledge are accepted as the Vedas, Vedic knowledge. In your European, American countries the accepted books of knowledge are the Old Testament and the New Testament. Similarly, the book of knowledge amongst the Muslims, (which) they have accepted is the Qur'an. Actually, they are all books of knowledge; undoubtedly. There is no doubt about it. But what are these books of knowledge? Religious scriptures! Religious scriptures are meant for training you to (understand) the conception of life that you are a pure soul, nothing more. They restrict your bodily activities under certain conditions. That is called morality. (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita, 25/03/66)

This message (of God) may also be found in the Bhagavad-gita and other Vedic literatures, in the Bible and the Qur'an — in any bona fide scripture — or it may be heard from a realised soul. (On the Way to Krishna, Ch. 3)

According to the Vedic scriptures, if one can support his stand by quoting from the Vedas, his argument is perfect. Similarly, when the Muslims support their stand with quotations from the Qur'an, their arguments are also authorised. (Chaitanya-charitamrita. Adi-lila, 7.155p)

Vedas means the books of transcendental knowledge. Not only the Bhagavad-gita, even the Bible or the Qur'an, they are also (books of transcendental knowledge). (Lecture, 29/07/68)

So, Aryan culture was practically all over the world. Aryan culture is based on God-consciousness. So amongst the Aryans there is some conception of religion; either Christian religion, Muslim religion, Buddhist religion, or Vedic religion, is based on the conception of God. So according to time and country, the ways of understanding may be a little different, but the aim is God-consciousness. That is Aryan civilisation. So God is one; God cannot be two. So the features of God or angles of vision of God may differ. (Room conversation. Tehran, 14/03/75)

Even if we say "Muhammad," why not? Anyone who has preached Krishna consciousness, maybe a little differently according to time and circumstances, but anyone who has tried to preach God-consciousness, he is guru (spiritual master). This is Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's version. Anyone who preaches about the Supreme Lord, he is guru. Maybe in a different way, according to time and circumstances. Muhammad also said Allah Akbar.

Buddha is shaktyavesha-avatara. We accept Lord Jesus Christ also as shaktyavesha-avatara. Muhammad is also shaktyavesha-avatara. Shaktyavesha-avatara means a living entity especially empowered and he preaches the philosophy on behalf (of God). That is called shaktyavesha-avatara. (Room conversation. Geneva. 4/06/74)

We accept Muhammad's authority. That's a fact. He is authority. (Room conversation. Tehran, 14/03/75)

Jesus Christ and Muhammad, two powerful devotees of the Lord, have done tremendous service on behalf of the Lord on the surface of the globe.(Srimad Bhagavatam, 2.4.18p)

Muhammad, the inaugurates of the Islamic religion, I accept him as an empowered servant of God because he preached God consciousness in those parts of the world and induced them to accept the authority of God. He is accepted as the servant of God and we have all respect for him. (Letter, 02/04/76)

So Chand Kazi also replied that "Cow killing is also not generally recommended in the Qur'an." Actually, beef-eating or flesh-eating is not of the higher stage. But those who are inclined to take flesh, for them it is recommended that instead of killing many small animals, one big animal should be killed. So actually in Mecca, Medina, they kill camels. That is also done near the mosque. So the substance of his speech was that flesh-eating ultimately is not recommended. (Conversation. San-Francisco, 5/04/67)

That is in Islam. That means God is not material. That is the idea. Because here the idea is when I make something, an image or picture, that is material. So there is a prohibition of accepting God as material. But if you go to a higher stage, then you'll understand that if God is everything, then nothing is material. That is Vaishnava philosophy. If God is everything, then where is matter? He is spiritual. Material means when you cannot understand God. That is material. Everything is sky. When it is covered by clouds, we call it cloudy. Similarly, clouds have no existence. They only come to cover for a while, but the sky is eternal. Similarly, God is eternal. When you are covered by some maya (illusion), you cannot see, you cannot understand God, that is material. So, any philosophy which does not help in the understanding of God is material. That is material. Otherwise, there is no material. Where is material if God is everything? Do you see?

Just like the Muslims call Him Allah, the Jews call Him Jehovah, or somebody calls Him something else. That doesn't matter. If you think that "Why should I chant the Indian name Krishna, Sanskrit name Krishna?" So, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu says that there are millions and billions of names of God. If you think that this Krishna name is not very suitable, you can accept any name. That doesn't matter. Our proposition is you chant God's name. That is our proposal. Therefore, it is universal. If you like, you can chant Jehovah or you can chant Allah, but we request you that you chant God's name. Is it very difficult? It is not at all difficult.

Originally posted by vistesd
Proper Knob, aside from your aim with this thread, and since others reading on here might be interested in knowing what A.C. Bhaktibdanta Swami Prabhupada has said about Islam, I am posting selected quotes from the site that both you and I have looked at. I have included only direct quotes, none of the explanatory commentary; nor have I added any discussio that you chant God's name. Is it very difficult? It is not at all difficult.

This is a teaching of the devil. Below is the true teaching:


Acts 4:12

New International Version (NIV)

"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

The Instructor

Originally posted by Dasa
NO.

You are not qualified to discuss spirituality in anyway whatsoever.

However if you can give me 5 examples of the difference,s between true religion and false relgion I will discuss with you.

1. A false religion will contain metaphysical beliefs that are logically contradictory with each other. A true religion, if there were one, wouldn't contain contradictory beliefs.
2. False religions are numerous, a true religion can't be.
3. False religions don't deliver on their promises. A true religion, if there were one, would.
4. False religions don't provide reliable ways to deal with the vicissitudes of life, a true religion would.
5. A false religion is relative, a true religion is absolute.

Edit: an example of #5, being absolute, is that the way to deal with a given vicissitude would be the same for anyone in the given situation.

Originally posted by vistesd
Proper Knob, aside from your aim with this thread, and since others reading on here might be interested in knowing what A.C. Bhaktibdanta Swami Prabhupada has said about Islam, I am posting selected quotes from the site that both you and I have looked at. I have included only direct quotes, none of the explanatory commentary; nor have I added any discussio ...[text shortened]... that you chant God's name. Is it very difficult? It is not at all difficult.

Fire away visted.

Originally posted by JS357
1. A false religion will contain metaphysical beliefs that are logically contradictory with each other. A true religion, if there were one, wouldn't contain contradictory beliefs.
2. False religions are numerous, a true religion can't be.
3. False religions don't deliver on their promises. A true religion, if there were one, would.
4. False religions don't ...[text shortened]... he way to deal with a given vicissitude would be the same for anyone in the given situation.

I would prefer that in your 3, "would" be changed to "could" or "might". It does not follow that a true religion must deliver on even one promise

Dasa, I don't preach Judaism to everyone. I don't say the Arabs must die.

Originally posted by Tygert
Dasa, I don't preach Judaism to everyone. I don't say the Arabs must die.

I wouldn’t be surprised if someone who is not Jewish (and doesn’t know very much about Judaism) someday says on here that you are not a “True Jew™”. 😕

Originally posted by vistesd
I wouldn’t be surprised if someone who is not Jewish (and doesn’t know very much about Judaism) someday says on here that you are not a “True Jew™”. 😕

Most Jews do not wish to kill Arabs, that is savage. My mother is Jewish and so am I. We do not believe in violence in Palestine/Israel.

Originally posted by Tygert
Most Jews do not wish to kill Arabs, that is savage. My mother is Jewish and so am I. We do not believe in violence in Palestine/Israel.

I know that. I was just reflecting on past history here.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Atheists do not even believe in true religion. All religion is false religion to them. They will not admit that evilution is a religious belief or that atheism is a religious belief. [...]

The Instructor

There are roughly 4200 religions in the world. You are an atheist as far as those other 4199 religions are concerned. An all-round atheist just sees your religion the same way you see the other 4199 religions. If you understand why you don't believe in any of those religions, you understand why atheists don't believe in yours.

Evolution is not a religious belief (even when it is spelled wrong). Religion is the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal god or gods (as found by Google). You don't need a superhuman controlling power for evolution. Just like you don't need one for keeping the moon in orbit, or for having Earth to revolve around the sun, or be called a sheep and be proud of it. We used to need one, but in that time we were incredibly stupid and ignorant. In the 21st century, there is no need and no reason for any god to exist. Evolution just works. The evidence is overwhelming. Denying the evidence of evolution is an insult to intelligence.

Originally posted by weelink
There are roughly 4200 religions in the world. You are an atheist as far as those other 4199 religions are concerned. An all-round atheist just sees your religion the same way you see the other 4199 religions. If you understand why you don't believe in any of those religions, you understand why atheists don't believe in yours.

Evolution is not a religious ...[text shortened]... he evidence is overwhelming. Denying the evidence of evolution is an insult to intelligence.

Expecting me to believe in evilution is an insult to my intelligence.

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
Expecting me to believe in evilution is an insult to my intelligence.

The Instructor

Most Jews accept the theory of evolution as I does not clash with traditional Judaism. Something Christians should remember is that Jesus of Nazareth was a Jew.

Dasa?

Originally posted by Tygert
Most Jews accept the theory of evolution as I does not clash with traditional Judaism. Something Christians should remember is that Jesus of Nazareth [b]was a Jew.[/b]

Jesus of Nazareth is not your kind of Jew, that is why your people rejected Him.

The Instructor