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Originally posted by FMFA criminal organization sees violence as "part of doing business", but it generally doesn't regard the violence itself as being a core belief. And even a lot of terrorist activity is merely part of "the business" of struggling for power against a rival group. Obviously, this violence is nevertheless a bad thing and should be minimized.
No one here opposes trying to eliminate terrorism, murder etc. Do they? When it comes to eliminating beliefs, what do you personally think "everything possible" means?
But there is something particularly galling about a belief system in which acts of violence are specifically encouraged, celebrated, and even required. I think this is why we feel so strongly about what Hitler did -- it wasn't just the usual violence of a modern war - it was a noxious belief system that specifically demanded that all non-Aryans had to be systematically eliminated to create a pure master race.
So, yes, there is a strong desire to "do everything possible" to eliminate not just the Nazi behaviors, but ALSO the Nazi belief system itself. Obviously, by "everything possible", I mean everything that is reasonable and humane.
But how do you go about eliminating a belief system? Even those with noxious beliefs have a first amendment right (in the US) to freely assemble and express those beliefs. And overt efforts to repress a belief system usually end up having the opposite effect.
Originally posted by MelanerpesOh well, I wouldn't want to be misunderstood, Melanerpes. I am no more a fan of what Hitler did to the Jews, than I am a fan of what terrorists who see their religion as the only true religion do in its name, or any more than I am a fan of what Dasa proposed on the 19th December.
I think this is why we feel so strongly about what Hitler did -- it wasn't just the usual violence of a modern war - it was a noxious belief system that specifically demanded that all non-Aryans had to be systematically eliminated to create a pure master race.
Originally posted by MelanerpesYou seem to be dodging the question. Or perhaps I did not phrase it well. When you said you "can understand [Dasa's] desire to do everything possible to eliminate those beliefs", is it your understanding that Dasa means "everything that is reasonable and humane"? Would you also want "to do everything possible to eliminate", say, a Vedic movement that professed a belief system that demanded that Islam "should be removed from civilized society" by force and replaced with what it asserts as the "true" religion?
So, yes, there is a strong desire to "do everything possible" to eliminate not just the Nazi behaviors, but ALSO the Nazi belief system itself. Obviously, by "everything possible", I mean everything that is reasonable and humane.
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Originally posted by FMFI really wish the unfortunate Dec 19 issue could finally be resolved.
You seem to be dodging the question. Or perhaps I did not phrase it well. When you said you "can understand [Dasa's] desire to do everything possible to eliminate those beliefs", is it your understanding that Dasa means "everything that is reasonable and humane"? Would you also want "to do everything possible to eliminate", say, a Vedic movement that professed a civilized society" by force and replaced with what it asserts as the "true" religion?
because this is the topic I would really like to see Dasa address at length: Does he believe that violent measures should be taken against those Muslims, like Taliban, who hold violent beliefs.
my own view here is clear opposition to violence - I agree that such groups (also including groups like neo-Nazis, KKK, etc) do have a right to assemble and express their beliefs as long as no one is directly involved in criminal activity. You really can't directly "eliminate" such beliefs.
the standard answer that's given is "education" and "promoting tolerance" -- which works reasonably well in the US and Europe. But what about places like Afghanistan? Does anyone really have a good answer?
Originally posted by deennyI have already commented on this by saying that madmen who try to teach falsity in a organized structured formal format would be dealt with by the the Vedic authority - and that they can believe what they want in the privacy of their own home..........but if they attempt to teach openly their nonsense they will be dealt with.
Noone claimed you actually used the word genocide. But What you said certainly suggested that it's what you meant. The only person who felt otherwise did not see your post. Other words you did not use were"certain men who are violent". What you did say was" All Muslin men". This is very dishonest to change the words in such a way and then blame us for misunde ...[text shortened]... ion tells you to be patient with people like me. All I require a simple trueful answer.
Dealt with means to be prevented/stopped/closed down.
In Vedic times people didn't teach falsity.........because everyone had been taught from birth the truth of God and life.
However if some person from the fringe came into the Vedic society to disrupt everything by teaching nonsense they would be dealt with.
Freedom of speech is respected in Vedic times.......but freedom to teach falsity is not.
If some eccentric madman stood on his soap box and spoke nonsense.......then he probably would be laughed at and ignored...........but if he tried to teach his nonsense in a formal structured manner consistently and continually that's different and he would be spoken to and prevented.
The Vedic authority wouldn't throw tomatoes at him.......but the people (children ) would.
In Vedic times even the children know truth........and any madman telling them they are coming from apes because life is just chemicals - would be laughed at and ridiculed.
People believe that life is just chemicals and they have come from apes because they have been brainwashed at school and they don't really care one way or another about God and religion - and therefore they have never taken the time to research this subject we are discussing.
Ask any school kid on any bus about the origin of man - and they just don't care if they came from apes or not.......they just don't care.
And because they don't care they just go along with the ape story.
Originally posted by MelanerpesI did see this, but it seemed to me more an attempt to obfuscate his clearly stated position than a retraction or apology.
on page 5 of this thread, Dasa said the following:When I say Muslim men........it goes without saying that I mean violent Muslim men who rape, plunder, bomb, murder and pillage in the name of Allah.
I admit I was not clear about this in my first post....... believing it would be obvious
rank outsider and avalanche - this does seem to be a retraction/apology - but it likely got buried and wasn't seen.
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Originally posted by MelanerpesWhy do you word you enquiry in such a way as to make it seem wrong?
I really wish the unfortunate Dec 19 issue could finally be resolved.
because this is the topic I would really like to see Dasa address at length: Does he believe that violent measures should be taken against those Muslims, like Taliban, who hold violent beliefs.
my own view here is clear opposition to violence - I agree that such groups (also incl d Europe. But what about places like Afghanistan? Does anyone really have a good answer?
You have said do I believe that we should use violent measures towards the Taliban and terrorist.
I have never said to use violence towards these criminals.
However I have said that they must be terminated/executed.
There is a big difference.
When the army court executed war criminals who threw babies alive into ovens.......were the army authorities violent?
NO they were not.
Executing criminals is the most compassionate method of dealing with the situation - because when the criminal is executed for his deeds - his bad karma is removed and in his next life he starts his new life with a clean slate.
However if he is not executed for his criminal deeds - then when he dies by natural causes he MUST take his bad Karma with him to his new life and with this bad karma he becomes a villain once again and disrupts society all over again.
Executing violent criminals is the most compassionate act - because it is compassionate towards him and the victim and society.......and everyone benefits.
This wishy washy Christian idea of sparing all these violent criminals who only re-offend when released is truly only false compassion dished out by false religious teachers who do not know what to do.......and do not know what not to do because they have zero knowledge about spirituality and true religion.
Originally posted by DasaWe should distinguish between speech that occurs WITHIN a given religious community, and speech that occurs in a secular marketplace of ideas (such as this RHP forum).
I have already commented on this by saying that madmen who try to teach falsity in a organized structured formal format would be dealt with by the the Vedic authority - and that they can believe what they want in the privacy of their own home..........but if they attempt to teach openly their nonsense they will be dealt with.
Dealt with means to be prevented ...[text shortened]... y just don't care.
And because they don't care they just go along with the ape story.
Within the Vedic community, it would be reasonable to expect everyone in it to conform with that community's rules and scriptures. For example, if the community didn't want any Muslims in it, that would be okay.
But do you agree that the Vedic community should NOT be able to restrict the speech or beliefs of those who live outside of that community - (assuming that these people aren't engaging in criminal activity)
Originally posted by DasaSo, providing a Muslim family kept themselves to themselves, and were not violent, they could live peacefully in Vedic society, and not fear any reprisals from the authorities?
I have already commented on this by saying that madmen who try to teach falsity in a organized structured formal format would be dealt with by the the Vedic authority - and that they can believe what they want in the privacy of their own home..........but if they attempt to teach openly their nonsense they will be dealt with.
Dealt with means to be prevented ...[text shortened]... y just don't care.
And because they don't care they just go along with the ape story.
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Originally posted by DasaIf someone has been convicted of a crime in a court of law of a capital crime, then the issue of whether or not to execute them is a very valid topic for debate.
Why do you word you enquiry in such a way as to make it seem wrong?
You have said do I believe that we should use violent measures towards the Taliban and terrorist.
I have never said to use violence towards these criminals.
However I have said that they must be terminated/executed.
There is a big difference.
When the army court executed war crim ...[text shortened]... o not know what not to do because they have zero knowledge about spirituality and true religion.
If all you're interested in is specific crimes, then say so, and we can focus on that. But you seem to be more interested in people who merely have noxious BELIEFS.
So what do think we should do? Let's say its a group of neo-nazis - do you believe it is okay to execute these people even if they've never actually committed any crimes? - let's say they spend all their time doing stuff like organizing parades, singing nazi songs, and selling offensive flags.
Originally posted by DasaI had you down for a lot of things Dasa, but a comedian was not one of them. If I understand you right, someone who teaches evolution would have tomatoes thrown at him... by children. Even Monty Python never came up with that one.
I have already commented on this by saying that madmen who try to teach falsity in a organized structured formal format would be dealt with by the the Vedic authority - and that they can believe what they want in the privacy of their own home..........but if they attempt to teach openly their nonsense they will be dealt with.
Dealt with means to be prevented ...[text shortened]... y just don't care.
And because they don't care they just go along with the ape story.
So now as well as having tomatoes thrown at them, they would be dealt with/prevented/ stopped/ closed down/spoken to/laughed at and ridiculed. It would be a hard life being a teacher of evolution in your world ( not your holy books world, which I believe has very little to say about evolution and nothing about the above punishments)
You are correct that most school kids do not care about the origin of man. The truth is they dont feel threatened by the fact they are descended from apes.So why are you. If you are descended from apes,it changes nothing in your life, so just enjoy it and let everyone else do the same
Originally posted by DasaI didn't see the 19th Dec thread (though I am certainly curious as to its specific content), but damn it man you reinforce my fear of and antipathy towards organised religion with a post like this ~ killing people to remove bad karma!?? - come on!!
Why do you word you enquiry in such a way as to make it seem wrong?
You have said do I believe that we should use violent measures towards the Taliban and terrorist.
I have never said to use violence towards these criminals.
However I have said that they must be terminated/executed.
There is a big difference.
When the army court executed war crim ...[text shortened]... o not know what not to do because they have zero knowledge about spirituality and true religion.
As was said earlier, some should consider themselves fortunate that you lack the intellect or credibility to gather support for your agenda.
Originally posted by DasaWhile I personally do not agree with the death penalty, your proposal that seriously violent criminals - such as murderers - run the risk of being executed for their crimes, is relatively uncontroversial. However, I think you should be specific about the crimes for which you support the use of capital punishment ["terminated/executed" as you put it], aside from things like murder and rape. And what about people who teach non-Vedic beliefs formally? You have said, for example, that people who teach scientific theories such as evolution are "criminals". They would be sent to prison?
You have said do I believe that we should use violent measures towards the Taliban and terrorist.
I have never said to use violence towards these criminals.
However I have said that they must be terminated/executed.
There is a big difference.
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Originally posted by FMFvedic religion has 6 capital crimes that can be carried out right away by any ordinary man without incurring any penalty (ie: mob justice).
While I personally do not agree with the death penalty, your proposal that seriously violent criminals - such as murderers - run the risk of being executed for their crimes, is relatively uncontroversial. However, I think you should be specific about the crimes for which you support the use of capital punishment ["terminated/executed" as you put it], aside from ...[text shortened]... o teach scientific theories such as evolution are "criminals". They would be sent to prison?
1. poisoning
2. arson
3. assault with a deadly weapon
4. thievery
5. squatting
6. wife kidnapping ( i guess kidnapping anything else is okay )