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Originally posted by Rajk999So in essence being a Christian is not essential for salvation, and being a non-Christian is preferable since you will have a shorter checklist to adhere to?
For non Christians the Bible supports the idea of
- righteous living and good works as essential.
Christ alone knows how he will judge these but they would not be left out.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkWhat point is it you are trying to make with "the thief"? You brought it up. Not me. You appear to be trying to make some ideological point that the Gospels don't support. Asked the simple question about what the Gospels say, it became apparent you don't really know. So, come on. What is the ideological point you think the Gospels make in their accounts of "the thief"?
And you could scarcely be more vague about what point you are actually trying to make. Do you believe that the account of the 'thief on the cross' is inacurate or fictional? Make your point if you have one.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkChristian saints of Christ will be in a position of authority under the leadership of Christ in the Kingdom of God. Yes, greater things are demanded of them.
So in essence being a Christian is not essential and being a non-Christian is preferable since you will have a shorter checklist to adhere to?
Im surprised you dont know that.
Originally posted by FMFOk, for starters, do you agree or disagree that one of the thieves on the cross was saved, i.e. went to Heaven?
What point is it you are trying to make with "the thief"? You brought it up. Not me. You appear to be trying to make some ideological point that the Gospels don't support. Asked the simple question about what the Gospels say, it became apparent you don't really know. So, come on. What is the ideological point you think the Gospels make in their accounts of "the thief"?
Originally posted by Rajk999Ok, so you (for example) are going to live in a mansion and have a high position and an atheist (for example) will be living in a hovel and will be cleaning your golden toilet?
Christian saints of Christ will be in a position of authority under the leadership of Christ in the Kingdom of God. Yes, greater things are demanded of them.
Im surprised you dont know that.
What have you been smoking? 😀
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkCan you simply not answer the question? I'm asking you what point you want to make and how the Gospels support it in your view. I'm asking you what you believe, not how i might agree with you or how you might agree with me. I am not a Christian. The stuff about "heaven" and being "saved" is your ideology, not mine. I am asking what's the point that you think the four Gospels make.
Ok, for starters, do you agree or disagree that one of the thieves on the cross was saved, i.e. went to Heaven?
Originally posted by FMFHis faith saved him and not his 'good works'. I thought that was obvious.
Can you simply not answer the question? I'm asking you what point you want to make and how the Gospels support it in your view. I'm asking you what you believe, not how i might agree with you or how you might agree with me. I am not a Christian. The stuff about "heaven" and being "saved" is your ideology, not mine. I am asking what's the point that you think the four Gospels make.
Originally posted by Rajk999No, you never ask, and yet you presume to assume.
If you remember certain things about me it will save you a lot of wasted time. I dont discuss my personal life neither will I ask about yours. These questions about specific people and their works etc, which you ask to try to trap me is not going to work as the answer is always that Jesus will judge people. Entry into the Kingdom has requirements and only Jesus knows the heart of man.
This is the basis of your hypocrisy.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkWhere did you get all that from? Three of the Gospels described the thieves as mocking Jesus - with one of them describing the mockery in detail. If the few words meant anything at all, they were surely saying that Jesus can forgive anyone He wants to regardless of the beliefs they profess or claim to profess - and He can do so even if they are not His followers or even if He is reviled by those people.
His faith saved him and not his 'good works'. I thought that was obvious.
There's nothing there to go on regarding "good works". There's nothing there to go on regarding "faith". You're just reaching. You're projecting an ideology onto what were a few sarcastic words of mockery aimed at Jesus.
One of the Gospels even chose not to mention the incident at all and, although the five lines would have been known about during the decades that passed before these Gospels were eventually finalized, and that Gospel - along with the other two - apparently wants no part in the squeezing of your ideology out of those five lines.
Originally posted by FMFInteresting indeed.
Where did you get all that from? Three of the Gospels described the thieves as mocking Jesus - with one of them describing the mockery in detail. If the few words meant anything at all, they were surely saying that Jesus can forgive anyone He wants to regardless of the beliefs they profess or claim to profess - and He can do so even if they are not His followers ...[text shortened]... other two - apparently wants no part in the squeezing of your ideology out of those five lines.
-Removed-Therein lies the rub. I shall put forward my own theories on the definition of "salvation" below. And the requirements for attaining it.
1. Salvation is not an otherwordly phenomenon, but is of this world, for the living. We see this in the bible, with certain passages expressing the expectation that the kingdom will be realized within their lifetime. When this did not happen, salvation, and the kingdom, were transferred to nebulous, otherworldly realm. This is a post-Pauline deviation.
2. Salvation is not an individualized phenomenon, but is a collective one. We see this in the Old Testament, with the Israelites being judged as a people. The atomization of salvation is a post-Pauline deviation.
With these points firmly in mind, I will hereby define what salvation IS and how to achieve it.
1. Salvation is the actualization of the Kingdom of God.
2. The Kingdom of God will be present upon the earth and will be inhabited by the living.
3. Jesus will not return bodily to inaugurate the Kingdom. He will return "in spirit" to inspire his followers to do so. The fact that Jesus has not returned after 2,000+ years should be sufficient evidence of this. He is waiting for us to act.
4. The Kingdom is all around us, but men do not see it. We have the power, at any time, to do what is necessary to inaugurate the Kingdom. Instead, we actively collaborate on a daily basis with the perpetuation of mammon. All the while we sit around, either actively or passively participating in the iniquities of the world, while we hope Jesus will fly down and deliver the Kingdom to us on a silver platter, without us ever having to break a sweat in its realization. It is small wonder that this has not happened. Nor will it.
5. The Kingdom will be realized when people quit collaborating in the train of iniquities that keep the world of mammon functioning, day in and day out. When they drop out of that world and form their own communities, the Kingdom will be at hand.
6. What will the Kingdom look like? The closest examples we have are the Hutterite communities of the western US and Canada. If we collectively abandon the iniquities of the world of Mammon and form our own communities, with the Hutterites as a rough template, the Kingdom of God will have been inaugurated, and salvation will have been realized. And the "spirit of God" will flood into that Kingdom and give it his blessing.
You see? There you have it.