1. Joined
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    31 Mar '09 08:03
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Deny evolution, and you deny god altogether

    Im still waiting from months ago for you and Zapansy to produce one iota of evidence that God used the evolutionary process. If it is a product of your mind and reasoning, then where is the thought process that leads us to this conclusion? for I verily proclaim that it has NO BASIS, say it again, NO BAS ...[text shortened]... dawn with pistols or French foils!, your choice, otherwise produce the goodies, regards Robbie.
    we did. but there is only so long you can scream at a brick wall before you realize the wall will neither comprehend nor scream back.

    so we kind of gave up. we are now trying to educate kellyjay as he is the more educated, more reasonable and more intelligent overall version of you.
  2. Standard memberKellyJay
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    31 Mar '09 08:36
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    You don't know much about Darwin, do you, KJ? Let me inform you: Sir Charles Darwin, the father of the theory of evolution, died 1882 in Downe, Kent.
    Darwin was, at his times, more alive as god has ever been. He was namely born once. God wasn't.
    Darwin is dead, God not so much! You can make your claims about
    God, and I can too, but in the end reality will show all the truth, I'm
    not overly concern about it.
    Kelly
  3. Standard memberKellyJay
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    31 Mar '09 08:38
    Originally posted by Scriabin
    Glad to see this thread. I was just pondering the other day something brought on by having watched a video my daughter and wife wanted to see. It was a cartoon feature showing a lot of African animals living together around a water hole, naturally all speaking English, and also quite unaware that some of them occupied niches in the eco-system requiring them ...[text shortened]... id God intend nature to be so cruel and result in so much pain and suffering? Towards what end?
    What do you find inconsistent with life and religion?
    Kelly
  4. Standard memberKellyJay
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    31 Mar '09 08:41
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Your pastor didn't answer your question: "Why are there suffering in the world?". By this non-answer, he answered it anyway: "Because god is not good."

    My faith in atomic theory is strong. The christian faith of the existance of god is weak. When someone doubt the atomic theory and give his expression about it, I laugh, and go on. When someone doubt th ...[text shortened]... s a fact, those who dismiss atomic theory cannot know much, but I laugh at them and go on.
    Because Adam sinned and brought everything down with him, the
    creation he was in charge of as well as introducing sin into the linage
    of man.
    Kelly
  5. Joined
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    31 Mar '09 08:51
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Darwin is dead, God not so much! You can make your claims about
    God, and I can too, but in the end reality will show all the truth, I'm
    not overly concern about it.
    Kelly
    but kelly, he is right. darwin was born and god wasn't. god is eternal 😀
    and can someone truly live if someone cannot die? we live and then we go to god, as such, god is not alive, he is what we will be in the afterlife.
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    31 Mar '09 09:001 edit
    The observation of the absence or presence of pain and suffering in the world is not an inteligent basis for considering wether or not there is a god. It is completely irrelevant and I'm surprised that it even considered as an argument by people past the age of concent! It's like saying you don't believe in evolution because of the ecruciating pain a woman goes through in childbirth - or that having children is not a good idea even! It's ridiculous.

    If you athiests want argue against theism then i suggest sticking to the tried and trusted "I can't see him - therefore he don't exist" argument as that is pretty safe. Perhaps even attack god by claiming he is unjust with the flood and such, but that is dangerous ground as it accepts there is a god in the first place and that he/she/it is the god of the bible, so limiting from a big picture point of view.

    Considered the posibility - there is a god - he just hates athiests....especially you? At least that would be on more reasonable ground than - 'there is no god cos I don't like seeing the animals getting killed'. The world is a tough and brutal place, read genisis with an open mind and think about what actually happened there (not the charlton heston holywood crap, but what really happened). Sin is a spiritual and genetic disease resulting in spiritual and physical death, the decay of morality and the carnage that brings. It's not pleasant but there is a solution.
  7. Joined
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    31 Mar '09 09:28
    Originally posted by divegeester
    The observation of the absence or presence of pain and suffering in the world is not an inteligent basis for considering wether or not there is a god. It is completely irrelevant and I'm surprised that it even considered as an argument by people past the age of concent! It's like saying you don't believe in evolution because of the ecruciating pain a ...[text shortened]... f morality and the carnage that brings. It's not pleasant but there is a solution.
    i have read genesis. on a side note, charlton heston played moses right? there is no moses in genesis as far as i can tell, is there?


    the only worthwhile things from genesis are the hidden meanings some of the more smart authors or hey, maybe even god tried to convey.

    1. god made the world in 7 days. impressive. the message is: "god is mighty and all powerful remember that when you discover it took him 15 billion years to obtain the monkeys from which we all come from and don't think he is any less awesome." the stone age savage could only count to as many sheep he had. if he had a lot he would simply say "god is merciful, he gave me a lot of sheep" how do you think 15 billion would have sounded? how do you think big bang and all the physics coming with it would have sounded to abraham?

    2. adam ate from the tree of knowledge. the message is this: "mankind's definitory trait is a thirst for knowledge. even if he is not yet ready for said knowledge. God knows what is best for you, you might want to listen or suffer the consequences".

    3. noah's flood. this one is hard. what moral can we take from "do what i want or i will freakin spank you". it is maybe the first as far as i know where we see the vengeful petty god from the old testament. later on he will send prophets, signs, dreams, even his only son to talk some sense into the stupid monkeys. but no, now he decides he will make most living things on earth bite the bullet. because probably his son wasn't born yet or his show was canceled, in short he was cranky.
    setting aside the train of thoughts that led the merciful god to kill most of the animals on earth(humans included), it is interesting to look at the HOW. "I am cranky and i will kill everyone of you, but because i am also awesome and like big shows, i am not simply going to magic away all the evil bastards out there and leave the animals alone (who weren't responsible anyway), i will make a huge freakin show with lots of rain, an arc with a menagerie, a family that was the ONLY decent family on earth, and generally bend quite a lot of the rules of nature so noah will bear witness that i am so awesome. and after i put this show for one family, i will probably have to take care that each animal including noah and his family can form a successful population out of only 1 pair(some animals had 7). And of course, incest is ok when i say it is."
    Quite the overkill wouldn't you think?

    4. Abraham and his sacrifice. God is merciful, god is great. "Hey abe, get your son, we will barbecue him, muhahaha".
    God is supposed to be all knowing, why didn't he knew what abe will choose?
    God is all powerfull, he could kill isaac if he wanted to and abe knew that. So if he knew that if god wanted to kill isaac, he would have done it anyway, there wasn't much of a choice for him, was there. So basically he suspected that if he played along, there might be a chance God would change his mind. What was the point of this? To cause abe emotional distress? To remind him how puny he is and he could be killed along with his family any second of his miserable life?

    Genesis is the first book in which we get to know the vengeful god of the old testament. filled with murders, useless lessons, and hidden useful lessons (very hidden). How much more of an open mind do you expect me to have?
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    31 Mar '09 09:37
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Because Adam sinned and brought everything down with him, the
    creation he was in charge of as well as introducing sin into the linage
    of man.
    Kelly
    But god knew that, didn't he? Why did he create a sinful Adam? Because he wanted him to sin. Therefore god is the greatest sinner of all, because he created the sin!
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    31 Mar '09 09:39
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Darwin is dead, God not so much! You can make your claims about
    God, and I can too, but in the end reality will show all the truth, I'm
    not overly concern about it.
    Kelly
    Ah, so you admit now that you in reality don't know so much? More humble now, eh?

    Well, we are all learning, aren't we?
  10. Standard memberKellyJay
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    31 Mar '09 10:23
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    but kelly, he is right. darwin was born and god wasn't. god is eternal 😀
    and can someone truly live if someone cannot die? we live and then we go to god, as such, god is not alive, he is what we will be in the afterlife.
    God is alive for that He didn't have to be born; in addition, He isn't
    dead and never will be. Being born for us isn't even the start of our
    lives, it is just a stage as our death and what comes after.
    Kelly
  11. Standard memberKellyJay
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    31 Mar '09 10:28
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    But god knew that, didn't he? Why did he create a sinful Adam? Because he wanted him to sin. Therefore god is the greatest sinner of all, because he created the sin!
    You should read scripture and meditate upon it, maybe you'll learn
    something. As soon as God setup a righteous/good kingdom evil was
    that which went against the precepts laid down, it is no different than
    saying as soon as it was established one and one is two all other
    numbers would be wrong, some worse than others, but wrong is wrong.
    Kelly
  12. Standard memberKellyJay
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    31 Mar '09 10:30
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Ah, so you admit now that you in reality don't know so much? More humble now, eh?

    Well, we are all learning, aren't we?
    I admit in reality we are both left with our faith and statements of our
    beliefs, when reality is completely revealed and truth banishes all the
    lies, we will know. If your right, who cares!?
    Kelly
  13. Standard memberKellyJay
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    31 Mar '09 10:361 edit
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    i have read genesis. on a side note, charlton heston played moses right? there is no moses in genesis as far as i can tell, is there?


    the only worthwhile things from genesis are the hidden meanings some of the more smart authors or hey, maybe even god tried to convey.

    1. god made the world in 7 days. impressive. the message is: "god is mighty and al ssons (very hidden). How much more of an open mind do you expect me to have?
    God is quite plain and up front about being vengeful, since He says
    that vengeance is His. He is quite up front about those that turn to
    Him in Jesus Christ will be forgiven of all sins and will receive His
    grace and mercy just as much as those that come before Him in
    their sins will face God and receive no grace or mercy, but will pay
    in full for their crimes against Deity.
    Kelly
  14. Joined
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    31 Mar '09 11:16
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    God is quite plain and up front about being vengeful, since He says
    that vengeance is His. He is quite up front about those that turn to
    Him in Jesus Christ will be forgiven of all sins and will receive His
    grace and mercy just as much as those that come before Him in
    their sins will face God and receive no grace or mercy, but will pay
    in full for their crimes against Deity.
    Kelly
    common kelly, he is a completely different god in the new testament. and doesn't he say that he doesn't change? so which of the testaments is lying?
    wouldn't you rather it be the old?
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    31 Mar '09 11:26
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    You should read scripture and meditate upon it, maybe you'll learn
    something. As soon as God setup a righteous/good kingdom evil was
    that which went against the precepts laid down, it is no different than
    saying as soon as it was established one and one is two all other
    numbers would be wrong, some worse than others, but wrong is wrong.
    Kelly
    I rather read books much more modern than your multi millenia old book. It has nothing to learn modern people about science. No wonder that there are creationists if they rather rely on genisis than books about biology and other sciences.

    I'm glad that I see signs of rethinking by you. Some days we laugh together about your former ignorance. 😉
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