Originally posted by galveston75
Good point. If God saw that the bad was so out of control and he knew the life's of the last few good humans were possibly in danger and then he also knew by reading the hearts of vast majority of humans during that time period were "all bad" as the bible says except for these 8, it would be loving for him to act and protect their lifes and the future li ...[text shortened]... humans had against them and God knew that perhaps they had been influanced beyond any help.

I too think that something deeply and darkly occultic was going on.

Since the last days will be like the days of Noah, we should give heed.

Originally posted by galveston75
"id ask him "rape,murder,pedophilia,cancer,aids,meningitis,war,poverty,ann coulter!!!.....you have a sick mind big fella, how did you even think this stuff up?"

This was posted on the "Ask God?" forum. Any comments on this? Does God cause these things to happen?

which god are you talking about? be more specific.

Originally posted by jaywill

Do you, as a loving parent, kill your children if they do wrong?
Wouldn't you be evil if you kill everyone you think do wrong, including your children?

If you don't see this as evil, then you have to define evil to me.

Your parallel is poor.

In Genesis God is supremely more qualified to know what each person needs in the way o ...[text shortened]... le for the world about the ways of God. That is a tragedy if you learn nothing from it.

So, if you were to kill off some persons that would be evil; but when God kills nearly all creation, that is just some effective discipline? Amazingly, you have actually managed to delude yourself, somehow, that intentionally bringing about the suffering and death of nearly all creation qualifies as an act of discipline unto persons. No, rather, it is just an act of mass killing (of any number and type of sentient creatures) on a horrific scale.

I like how some of you theists are ready and willing to predicate terms like 'loving', 'good', 'righteous', etc unto God when His actions exemplify our common intuitions regarding such terms but deny that terms like 'evil' could be predicated unto him when His actions exemplify our common intuitions regarding such a term. Unfortunately for you, that is not the way things actually work. And your stance regarding the predication of moral terms unto God is incoherent.

Originally posted by jaywill
I too think that something deeply and darkly occultic was going on.

Since the last days will be like the days of Noah, we should give heed.

It could have been. With the demons actually becoming human in form who knows what kind of affects they had directly on humans and the sick and perverse things that God wanted destroyed.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
which god are you talking about? be more specific.

The God of the Bible....

Originally posted by galveston75
"id ask him "rape,murder,pedophilia,cancer,aids,meningitis,war,poverty,ann coulter!!!.....you have a sick mind big fella, how did you even think this stuff up?"

This was posted on the "Ask God?" forum. Any comments on this? Does God cause these things to happen?

As soon as there is only one right way to do things, than all other ways to act
would be wrong. So as soon as God said love one another those that do not
do evil.
Kelly

Originally posted by LemonJello
So, if you were to kill off some persons that would be evil; but when God kills nearly all creation, that is just some effective discipline? Amazingly, you have actually managed to delude yourself, somehow, that intentionally bringing about the suffering and death of nearly all creation qualifies as an act of discipline unto persons. No, rather, it is j ...[text shortened]... work. And your stance regarding the predication of moral terms unto God is incoherent.

I take my ques from Jesus Christ. If His Father did something wrong He would inform us.

Somehow His person, words, and talk about the Old Testament impresses me more than your person, words, and rationals. There is just a kind of approvedness in the character of Jesus which you simply never display.

There is just a quality of morality with Jesus of Nazareth and His impact on history that I don't see with you. You must be off in your thinking somewhere.

People have time to think when impending disaster is coming. People have time to consider their ways, repent, pray and even ask God for forgiveness. Neither one of us was there to see the details of those deaths, and how their attitudes were manifested in death.

I think the Judge of all the earth will do right.

Originally posted by jaywill
I too think that something deeply and darkly occultic was going on.

Since the last days will be like the days of Noah, we should give heed.

But also people would be doing things like we do everyday like "marriage, eating, drinking" as the Bible says. So life will be pretty normal in many ways and that's the warning that's being stressed here. It will come like a "thief in the night" and for ones that "are not seeing" the signs, life would seem to be normal.

Originally posted by jaywill
I take my ques from Jesus Christ. If His Father did something wrong He would inform us.

Somehow His person, words, and talk about the Old Testament impresses me more than your person, words, and rationals. There is just a kind of [b]approvedness in the character of Jesus which you simply never display.

There is just a quality of morality with eir attitudes were manifested in death.

I think the Judge of all the earth will do right.[/b]

You failed to address my charge that your stance on predication of moral terms unto God is inconsistent. Just telling me that you have, in your pitiful self-loathing, resolved not to think for yourself but rather to take all your cues from a 2,000 year old zombie does not actually address the issue.

Perhaps you could explain why it is that you are not able to appropriately predicate 'evil' unto God when His actions appear, in accordance with our closely and collectively held moral intuitions, to be as such: but you are able to appropriately predicate 'good' unto God when His actions appear, in self-same fashion, to be as such (or even when they fail to appear as such, or just, apparently, whenever you feel like it willy nilly)?

Originally posted by jaywill
People have time to think when impending disaster is coming. People have time to consider their ways, repent, pray and even ask God for forgiveness. Neither one of us was there to see the details of those deaths, and how their attitudes were manifested in death.

Again, the infants and young children, not yet at the age of accountability, are incapable of 'repenting' or being evil. I don't have to see the details of their deaths to know that the taking of those lives was wrong.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Again, the infants and young children, not yet at the age of accountability, are incapable of 'repenting' or being evil. I don't have to see the details of their deaths to know that the taking of those lives was wrong.

The problem with religions that include the concept of an afterlife is that theologically, death looses all its negative connotations. Although you may see causing another's death as obviously wrong, this is based largely on the premise that they are loosing out on life. In Christianity however, it can be pretended that murder is not obviously wrong but that one does not murder because one is told not to by God.
At best you can discuss the suffering encountered during dying and compare it with the possibility of God offering global lethal morphine injections rather than a flood. But if this is the case then the flood might not be the best example of God causing suffering. A quick death due to drowning might be less painful than starvation or disease as caused by one of Gods plagues - but maybe they were never global.

Also many theists believe in an absolute morality generated or degreed by God. Thus right and wrong is only what God says is right and wrong. Of course this does not tally with what they actually believe or how they actually behave. For example, here, they are not saying - 'whatever God does is inherently right', they are saying - 'we trust that what God does is right and if we knew the full details it would be obviously right even to us'.

Originally posted by twhitehead
The problem with religions that include the concept of an afterlife is that theologically, death looses all its negative connotations. Although you may see causing another's death as obviously wrong, this is based largely on the premise that they are loosing out on life. In Christianity however, it can be pretended that murder is not obviously wrong but t ...[text shortened]... God does is right and if we knew the full details it would be obviously right even to us'.

Don't forget that death has a potentially dreadful negative connotation in the Christian faith - the possibility of hell! And not all theists are sure that dead infants and children won't go to hell - they sometimes say the fate is uncertain, and/or up to God.

And I'm more than willing to debate the position that absolute morality is decreed by God. It means sometimes the theist must defend actions that seem morally repugnant to us humans. They end up using words like justice, righteousness, etc. with almost the opposite meaning - I call this bizarro speech. It's one of my favorite targets on this forum.

Originally posted by galveston75
The God of the Bible....

okay, that's one thing set aside. this also puts the term "evil" into perspective.

the bible has some conflicting assertions about free will.

in some places, it is suggested that there is free will. in which case, bible-god created the potential of evil.

in other places, it is suggested that things are predetermined. in which case, bible-god is the author of all evil.

now does biblegod also cause evil? one need only read the bible to discover that he does in fact cause much evil by his own hand, so whichever of the two conditions above are more accurate, it remains that biblegod also causes evil when it suits his purposes.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Don't forget that death has a potentially dreadful negative connotation in the Christian faith - the possibility of hell! And not all theists are sure that dead infants and children won't go to hell - they sometimes say the fate is uncertain, and/or up to God.

I haven't forgotten, but it is not particularly relevant, or the point can easily be made by other means.
If Gods choice for the future location of souls is unfair, then it is unfair for anyone regardless of whether or not God kills them personally. If he has a fair system, then it is fair for everyone regardless of whether or not he kills them personally.
If you argue that dying young results in unfair judgement, then this applies to all cases of dying young, not just the flood.

Originally posted by LemonJello
You failed to address my charge that your stance on predication of moral terms unto God is inconsistent. Just telling me that you have, in your pitiful self-loathing, resolved not to think for yourself but rather to take all your cues from a 2,000 year old zombie does not actually address the issue.

Perhaps you could explain why it is that you are not en they fail to appear as such, or just, apparently, whenever you feel like it willy nilly)?

You failed to address my charge that your stance on predication of moral terms unto God is inconsistent. Just telling me that you have, in your pitiful self-loathing,

Pitiful self loathing ? I am a man. That is a very unique creature, you know? Not at all the accidental meaningless speck of dust your modern culture brain washed you into believing.

God became a man. So a man is really special. A man is not only created in the image of God. But there is a man like me reigning on the throne of this universe - Jesus Christ.

So from where is this "self loathing" ? I am made in the image of God. You look at me and I remind you of God. Same goes for you. So being a Christian has greatly hightened my estimation of myself and humanity.

On the other hand the "gospel of dirt" in which we are accidental mutated apes (or something that artists make LOOK like an ape anyway) on a second rate planet, circling a second rate star, in a second rate galaxies with no future but to fizzle out unless we self destruct first, ... well, if not leading to "self loathing" its not nearly as honorable as what my Bible teaches.

And I through Christ I have a GIFT which I didn't ask for. Neither could it have come into my imagination to ask - "the gift of God is eternal life" . How can I be "self loathing" when apparently God wants me to live with Him FOR EVER AND EVER ?

I could say more if you want to press this "self loathing" matter further. That's good for now.

resolved not to think for yourself but rather to take all your cues from a 2,000 year old zombie does not actually address the issue.

Argument by Outrage. Tactic - Ie. "Refer to the Christian's Savior in a most insulting way. Maybe he'll just go away in disgust. "

What I said to you was not meant to be a slight. Difficult issues in the Bible DO exist. Eventually we all will trust someone. The approvedness of Christ instills my trust over and against your way of joining Satan to hurl accusations against God.

And argument from Authority is not necessarily a wrong argument. It may just be a logically weaker argument. The truth may be represented at times by a logically weaker argument from authority.

Jesus had no problem saying things like "You HEARD that this was written. But NOW I say to you something better ..."

He well could have done that with the flood of Noah. I can't find where He did. I assume Christ attributed no evil done by God in carrying out that righteous judgment.

Perhaps you could explain why it is that you are not able to appropriately predicate 'evil' unto God when His actions appear, in accordance with our closely and collectively held moral intuitions, to be as such: but you are able to appropriately predicate 'good' unto God when His actions appear, in self-same fashion, to be as such (or even when they fail to appear as such, or just, apparently, whenever you feel like it willy nilly)?

I think God's life and ways are higher than our ways.

For example, when I had two little kids I took them to the medical doctor. The doctor in examining them put a little flat wooden stick into the mouth of my child and said " Now say aaaaa ...". The doctor examined the tonsils of the child.

Sometime latter I caught my two children playing doctor. The older child was sticking something into the mouth of the younger one. I strictly forbade my children to EVER place ANY object into the mouth of the other. It was dangerous.

What was appropriate for the medical doctor to do to my children was not appropriate for my children to imitate. They had not the training, the skill, the knowledge, the motive, or any of the professianal backround or human level of mature wisdom to put objects into the mouth of each other.

The analogy is not perfect. I think it is adaquate to demonstrate we cannot always place the actions of the heavenly Father - God on the same level as human institutions.

We are limited in wisdom and knowledge. God's wisdom and knowledge is without limit. I believe that God could examine a trillion people simultaneously as to every deed of their lives. It does not surprise me that such a Being at times is recorded to have done things in the Bible, which some would judge wrongly in thier limitation of being creatures.

I think your moral judgments against God concerning the flood of Noah are such errors. I think God knew just who should die of drowning, just WHO should die this way or that way. I believe as Christ said even the hairs on our head were all numbered, so God knew exactly what circumstances and details were the right ones for each person.

And of course He knows exactly what kind of resurrection and eternal judgment is appropriate for every human who has lived.