One Christian poster very recently said: "All the atheists do, because it's all you got."
As for me, I think there is plenty of pessimism about the human condition among atheists; just as there is plenty of optimism about it among many Christians I have met.
To "sugarcoat" means to "make superficially attractive or acceptable".
Is that really what non-pessimists do with the human condition?
Thoughts?
@fmf saidAre they really non-pessimists, or did you just throw that in to sugarcoat the thread before the beat-down?
One Christian poster very recently said: "All the atheists do, because it's all you got."
As for me, I think there is plenty of pessimism about the human condition among atheists; just as there is plenty of optimism about it among many Christians I have met.
To "sugarcoat" means to "make superficially attractive or acceptable".
Is that really what non-pessimists do with the human condition?
Thoughts?
@suzianne saidI think there are pessimists and optimists on both sides of the theist-atheist divide. I think the assertion that "all the atheists" sugarcoat the human condition just isn't true.
Are they really non-pessimists, or did you just throw that in to sugarcoat the thread before the beat-down?
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@fmf saidAll atheists? Seriously? That's as fatuous a classification as all Americans or all Blacks or all blue-eyed people with one wooden leg. Some will, some won't, some will be fence sitters.
One Christian poster very recently said: "All the atheists do, because it's all you got."
As for me, I think there is plenty of pessimism about the human condition among atheists; just as there is plenty of optimism about it among many Christians I have met.
To "sugarcoat" means to "make superficially attractive or acceptable".
Is that really what non-pessimists do with the human condition?
Thoughts?
Maybe you (or your interlocutor) should first get clear about what the human condition is before asking whether all Xs sugarcoat it. Substitute any classification for 'X'.
@fmf saidWhat does it mean to be human?
One Christian poster very recently said: "All the atheists do, because it's all you got."
As for me, I think there is plenty of pessimism about the human condition among atheists; just as there is plenty of optimism about it among many Christians I have met.
To "sugarcoat" means to "make superficially attractive or acceptable".
Is that really what non-pessimists do with the human condition?
Thoughts?
@indonesia-phil said“I just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in.”
It means you have a condition.
@kellyjay saidIt means to have the capacity to perceive ourselves and other members of our species [Homo sapiens], through the prism of our conscience, as mutually-dependent sentient beings who can use complex language to communicate, cooperate and affect each other in abstract ways.
What does it mean to be human?
@fmf saidThat sounds more like what we are, not what it means. You missed the question.
It means to have the capacity to perceive ourselves and other members of our species [Homo sapiens], through the prism of our conscience, as mutually-dependent sentient beings who can use complex language to communicate, cooperate and affect each other in abstract ways.
@kellyjay saidI disagree. What it "means" to be a human is whatever it is we do with the capacities that being Homo sapiens gives us. For me, what it "means" to be a human is the opportunity to learn, to teach, to love and to be loved within the human environment that human consciousness gives us.
That sounds more like what we are, not what it means.
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@fmf saidThat's a pretty good working definition. I would like to flesh out "the prism of conscience", and "mutual dependence", if I may.
It means to have the capacity to perceive ourselves and other members of our species [Homo sapiens], through the prism of our conscience, as mutually-dependent sentient beings who can use complex language to communicate, cooperate and affect each other in abstract ways.
We are social animals, as Aristotle noted. This is essential to our species, and a fundamental component of complex communication which surpasses all other species. So, yes, mutual dependence is part of who and what we are. Do you know the story of Kapsar Hauser, who was kept for many years in isolation? A desperate and pathetic character. In some sense, not fully human. We need social contact to unfold our potential as humans.
Second, the prism of conscience... I believe that one of the things that makes us human, as distinct from other species, is our consciousness of our own mortality. There is some evidence that elephants recognise the bones of deceased members of their herd, but I'm not sure each elephant is aware of its own mortality. Humans are aware of their own mortality, and this, I believe, is an essential evolutionary step towards morality. If we lived forever, or believed we would live forever, there would be no crime which could not be remediated, eventually. But because we are aware of our mortality, we recognise that there is one crime, murder, which cannot be remediated. It can only be atoned, but not made good again -- theft can be repaid, insult can be apologized, damage to property can be repaired, but killing is terminal and irremediable. So this is part of what separates us from other animals, namely, awareness of mortality, awareness of crimes which cannot be remediated, and the development of moral precepts (possibly but not necessarily codified as laws or commandments -- thou shalt not kill, etc.). Moral precepts become internalized as a sort of inner or psychological resistance to doing bad things, called "conscience" or "the moral compass."
Now, morality is not just prohibitions against bad things, but also has a positive side. The prism of conscience and mutual dependence put together lead to positive evaluations of mutual assistance, support and cooperation, what in moral terms is often called "altruism". These things are evaluated as noble and good.
@fmf saidWhat it means is what we do? So all the killing, stealing, lying, this is who we are what we mean?
I disagree. What it "means" to be a human is whatever it is we do with the capacities that being Homo sapiens gives us. For me, what it "means" to be a human is the opportunity to learn, to teach, to love and to be loved within the human environment that human consciousness gives us.
@kellyjay saidAlso all the reaching out to help when wars, famines, hurricanes, earthquakes, and pandemics strike. Also the public schools and libraries, which support a whole society despite people (such as AverageJoe) who never directly use them and complain about paying for other people's kids' educations. Also the people who risk their lives every day working to improve conditions in places where polio still has not been entirely eradicated. And countless other kindnesses which occur every day and aren't reported in the news.
What it means is what we do? So all the killing, stealing, lying, this is who we are what we mean?
You have such a jaundiced view of humanity; you see only the failures, not the successes. What went wrong in your childhood, that you think only bleak thoughts about your fellow men?