Do athiests feel angst when confronted with death

Originally posted by Maustrauser
Atheists do not live a life believing in eternal damnation.

What a damn silly thing to say!

I post here because I believe that fundamentalist christians are a hazard to humanity. Their belief that death simply frees one for the afterlife (read all of Darfius' quotes where he says that it doesn't matter that Midianite kids were slaughtered c ...[text shortened]... ocrisy of the Bible, then I have achieved something. The world will be a better place.

Henry[/b]

One must look at context in regards to the Medianite children. Their parents were evil people attempting to kill and adulterize with the Jews. The kids went to Heaven rather than growing up and going to hell.

Would you prefer they had gone to hell, Maus? Yes or no.

Babies that are aborted today are usually not children of murdering (until after the abortion, of course) parents. And I know of few Americans who adulterize with Old Testament Jews.

Originally posted by Darfius
Do you think Martin Luther King deserves eternal life or nothingness?

And I asked for your version (stressing I didn't mean physical, but hypothetical). You failed to provide it. Should I do anything but conclude that you're condemning God for doing something better than anything you can think of?

What sort of sense does that make?

Regarding MLK, I will go no further than to say I do not believe that he, or any human, deserves eternal torment.

If I were to create a universe hypothetically, it would not be perfect, because I am not perfect. The key difference is that the biblical god claims to be perfect, and this claim is easily toppled with a few critical observations.

I am not condemning god, if it exists; I am condemning the bible and its idea of god. It has not been proven to my satisfaction that the biblical god has done anything, or even existed.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
Regarding MLK, I will go no further than to say I do not believe that he, or any human, deserves eternal torment.

If I were to create a universe hypothetically, it would not be perfect, because I am not perfect. The key difference ...[text shortened]... that the biblical god has done anything, or even existed.

Your sweeping, unfounded statements are beginning to bore me.

Why won't you answer my question? Christians do not only claim hell exists. We claim Heaven exists and is available to all. Does Martin Luther King deserve eternal life or nothingness?

Why isn't this universe perfect? Support your claim.

What exactly would satisfy you?

Originally posted by Darfius
Your sweeping, unfounded statements are beginning to bore me.

Why won't you answer my question? Christians do not only claim hell exists. We claim Heaven exists and is available to all. Does Martin Luther King deserve eternal life or nothingness?

Why isn't this universe perfect? Support your claim.

What exactly would satisfy you?

"Your sweeping, unfounded statements are beginning to bore me."

I am similarly unimpressed when you talk of god as if we both knew it was there.

Enough with the MLK question. I have not set myself up as a god, even hypothetically. I therefore feel no burden to even decide what MLK deserves. All I know about him is what the history books have told me. That's not enough information to make such a decision.

I can't speak for what christians claim, but I know what the bible claims. It claims that the road to eternal life is narrow and that few find it. That doesn't sound like availability.

I am disappointed that I should even have to point out why the universe isn't perfect. Natural disasters, famine, overpopulation, etc. are good starting points. Then there's humanity and our usual selfish, cruel behavior, and lack of foresight.

I'm pretty satisfied right now having no religious belief system. (I'm not sure you would call agnosticism a 'religious' system...). I did have one for 2 decades, and it did not ring true with me. It was almost a relief to find that I was at peace without it.

Enough with the MLK question. I have not set myself up as a god, even hypothetically. I therefore feel no burden to even decide what MLK deserves. All I know about him is what the history books have told me. That's not enough information to make such a decision.

Why would you have to be god to give an opinion? And your burden is me asking the question. It's funny how you expect me to answer your questions but feel free to avoid mine.

I can't speak for what christians claim, but I know what the bible claims. It claims that the road to eternal life is narrow and that few find it. That doesn't sound like availability.

Few find it because few are humble enough. Or are you being humble right now?? It's available to you, Bigdogg. Take it.

I am disappointed that I should even have to point out why the universe isn't perfect. Natural disasters, famine, overpopulation, etc. are good starting points. Then there's humanity and our usual selfish, cruel behavior, and lack of foresight.

The world was perfect before man sinned. Since God cannot stand sin, He departed the world. Blame Adam and Eve for the world not being perfect, not God. In fact, blame free will, if you feel brave enough.

I'm pretty satisfied right now having no religious belief system. (I'm not sure you would call agnosticism a 'religious' system...). I did have one for 2 decades, and it did not ring true with me. It was almost a relief to find that I was at peace without it.

You're avoiding the question again. What would satisfy you as to God's existence?

Originally posted by Darfius

It's funny how you expect me to answer your questions but feel free to avoid mine.

Odd you would say that. I did not ask even one question in my last post.

The world was perfect before man sinned. Since God cannot stand sin, He departed the world. Blame Adam and Eve for the world not being perfect, not God. In fact, blame free will, if you feel brave enough.

It isn't logical to condemn an entire species because the first two of their members 'sinned'. The whole story of Adam and Eve is really fanciful. We are supposed to condemn Eve for eating the apple, even though at the time, she did not know that the serpent was evil. The only dissuading threat was the vague threat of death, which no human had yet experienced or witnessed. Given the naturally curious nature of humans, I would be surprised if ANY of us would NOT eat it, if placed in that situation. They would have been like small children. You can tell a child not to put his hand on a hot stove, but he won't be convinced until he finally touches the thing and burns himself.

I certainly would not condemn the entire human race because of an act like this.

Edit: One more thing
You're avoiding the question again. What would satisfy you as to God's existence?

The core agnostic belief is that it is not possible to know whether or not god exists. Therefore, I can't be satisfied on this point.

Originally posted by Darfius
Do you think Martin Luther King deserves eternal life or nothingness?

Well, he deserves eternal life of course. What is on debate here, is will he get it.

Deserving something and it being available are two different things.

Originally posted by Darfius
One must look at context in regards to the Medianite children. Their parents were evil people attempting to kill and adulterize with the Jews. The kids went to Heaven rather than growing up and going to hell.

Would you prefer they had gone to hell, Maus? Yes or no.

Sorry Darf, this isn't a yes or no question for me.

I do not believe there is such a thing as hell. I would have prefered the children to have had a childhood, with their parents, who I suspect (regardless of their other supposed crimes) actually loved them. Unlike the God of the OT who was happy to see them all slaughtered.

Here is an excellent site that represents what I was talking about earlier. www.hospices.org/chaplains_spiritual_care.htm

Yes, when faced with the conscious realization that I will die, I often feel angst.

I thus ask those that do not consider themselves saved, should there by any

As I don't think I need or ever did need saving in the typical Christian meaning of the word, I don't think I could be saved. Saved from what?

to openly discuss their views regarding the concept of the Christian God (not the reality, the concept) and what problem they have with this concept.

The famous Problem of Evil has never been addressed by Christians to my satisfaction. Summarized - if there existed an omnipotent, good god, there could be no evil.

From a scientific perspective, God explains very little or nothing that current science cannot explain better without resorting to gods. Using this knowledge, Occam's Razor suggests God probably doesn't exist.

There is no reason to think anyone knows anything about any gods even if they do exist.

Those are some of the major reasons I think the Christian God is incredibly improbable.

Where is the usual anti-crowd ? Rwingo, Cribs, Nemesio, No1 ?

...... not so vocal this time, gentlemen ?

Odd you would say that. I did not ask even one question in my last post.

Still avoiding my question, eh? That's unfortunate.

It isn't logical to condemn an entire species because the first two of their members 'sinned'. The whole story of Adam and Eve is really fanciful. We are supposed to condemn Eve for eating the apple, even though at the time, she did not know that the serpent was evil. The only dissuading threat was the vague threat of death, which no human had yet experienced or witnessed. Given the naturally curious nature of humans, I would be surprised if ANY of us would NOT eat it, if placed in that situation. They would have been like small children. You can tell a child not to put his hand on a hot stove, but he won't be convinced until he finally touches the thing and burns himself.

Eve knew what she was doing would be disobeying God. Would you disobey God if you knew He existed? Tell me, if your parents had unprotected sex and contracted AIDS before having you, and you were born with it, is that unfair to you? Of course. Now, what if a doctor offered you a complete cure. Would it make sense to tell him no and remain bitter because you were born with it in the first place? Whether we like it or not, other people's actions have consequences for us sometimes.

I certainly would not condemn the entire human race because of an act like this.

He didn't condemn us. He punished us and then offered a way to end the punishment. Should parents kill their children when they misbehave? Of course not. Should they discipline them? Of course.

The core agnostic belief is that it is not possible to know whether or not god exists. Therefore, I can't be satisfied on this point.



It's not possible to know? Then how do I know He does? How do atheists know He doesn't? Seems like agnostics cling to the only belief that's been proven impossible.

Originally posted by Alcra
Well, he deserves eternal life of course. What is on debate here, is will he get it.

Deserving something and it being available are two different things.

Why does MLK deserve eternal life but Hitler does not deserve eternal punishment?

Your double standard for justice is confusing.

Originally posted by Maustrauser
Sorry Darf, this isn't a yes or no question for me.

I do not believe there is such a thing as hell. I would have prefered the children to have had a childhood, with their parents, who I suspect (regardless of their other supposed crimes) actually loved them. Unlike the God of the OT who was happy to see them all slaughtered.

What you may believe and what may exist are seperate things. If hell exists, and your politcally correct view had been maintained, most of these kids would have later gone to hell.

Would you want that on your conscience, Maus?

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Yes, when faced with the conscious realization that I will die, I often feel angst.

[b]I thus ask those that do not consider themselves saved, should there by any

As I don't think I need or ever did need saving in the typical Christian meaning of the word, I don't think I could be saved. Saved from what?

to openly discuss their view ...[text shortened]... xist.

Those are some of the major reasons I think the Christian God is incredibly improbable.

What if science is just the study of how God did things? The Big Bang sounds a lot like something coming from nothing (what Genesis claimed happened). Evolution sounds suspiciously like what is described in Genesis.

You do realize evil is simply the lack of good, yes? Much like cold is the absence of heat? How do you propose God stop all evil without infringing on someone's free will to deny Him?

As I said before. Your impossible premises make it quite logical to say your version of god is impossible!