Do athiests feel angst when confronted with death

Originally posted by Darfius

Still avoiding my question, eh? That's unfortunate.

You might as well have asked me whether a certain kid deserves presents from Santa Claus. I have no interest in answering such questions.

Eve knew what she was doing would be disobeying God. Would you disobey God if you knew He existed?

Yes, for the same reason that all children disobey their parents. They test the boundaries and discover what they should and should not do.

Now, what if a doctor offered you a complete cure. Would it make sense to tell him no and remain bitter because you were born with it in the first place?

If the doctor can convince me that I have AIDS, of course I would accept the cure. But if I think he's a quack, I'm getting a second opinion.

He didn't condemn us. He punished us and then offered a way to end the punishment. Should parents kill their children when they misbehave? Of course not. Should they discipline them? Of course.

Which is worse: killing, or torturing for eternity?
If the punishment is hell, then the punishment has not yet occurred. And the bible doesn't allow for those who are sent to hell to change their mind once they're there. So there is no way to end the punishment.

It's not possible to know? Then how do I know He does? How do atheists know He doesn't? Seems like agnostics cling to the only belief that's been proven impossible.

You're confusing belief with knowledge. Both you and the atheist think you know, but one of you must be wrong, so I have already proven that a belief other than Agnosticism is invalid.

Edit: fixed formatting

Originally posted by Darfius
Why does MLK deserve eternal life but Hitler does not deserve eternal punishment?

Your double standard for justice is confusing.

Everyone deserves eternal, infinite bliss.

Originally posted by Darfius
What if science is just the study of how God did things? The Big Bang sounds a lot like something coming from nothing (what Genesis claimed happened). Evolution sounds suspiciously like what is described in Genesis.

You do realize ev ...[text shortened]... es make it quite logical to say your version of god is impossible!

What if science is just the study of how God did things?

What if it is?

The Big Bang sounds a lot like something coming from nothing (what Genesis claimed happened). Evolution sounds suspiciously like what is described in Genesis.

I see no reason to believe that the God Christians believe in caused nature to be the way it is. Doesn't Genesis say the first man was made out of dirt and the first woman grew from the first man's rib? Science doesn't agree with that!

I disagree that evil is the lack of good. Evil is pain and suffering.

Impossible premises? What impossible premises?

You might as well have asked me whether a certain kid deserves presents from Santa Claus. I have no interest in answering such questions.

Nope. You can't.

Yes, for the same reason that all children disobey their parents. They test the boundaries and discover what they should and should not do.

I don't know about you, but my parents can't creatye universes with a word. If they could, I would be much more inclined not to disobey them.

If the doctor can convince me that I have AIDS, of course I would accept the cure. But if I think he's a quack, I'm getting a second opinion.

If you are constantly getting sick, and your parents are constantly getting sick, and you have the same symptoms as people with AIDS, and a medical professional tells you you have AIDS, would you believe you had AIDS or not? Of course. And you just said you would accept the cure. Well, everyone sins, and the results are obvious. So accept the cure for that.

Which is worse: killing, or torturing for eternity?
If the punishment is hell, then the punishment has not yet occurred. And the bible doesn't allow for those who are sent to hell to change their mind once they're there. So there is no way to end the punishment.

Killing, because it has no reason most of the time. It's evil. "Torturing" is the just punishment for the crime.

You're confusing belief with knowledge. Both you and the atheist think you know, but one of you must be wrong, so I have already proven that a belief other than Agnosticism is invalid.

How do you know we just think rather than know? What makes you the expert? I KNOW God exists. Atheists KNOW He doesn't. You openly admit to THINKING we can't know. Your position is logically impossible.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Everyone deserves eternal, infinite bliss.

Even Hitler? What did they do to deserve it?

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
[b]What if science is just the study of how God did things?

What if it is?

The Big Bang sounds a lot like something coming from nothing (what Genesis claimed happened). Evolution sounds suspiciously like what is described in Genesis.

I see no reason to believe that the God Christians believe in caused nature to be the way it is. ...[text shortened]... the lack of good. Evil is pain and suffering.

Impossible premises? What impossible premises?[/b]

If it it is the study of how God things, then it is baseless to say "I believe in science, not God."

Yes, Genesis says God used the elements of the earth to create Adam. What does evolution say happened?

Yes, Genesis does say God put Adam to sleep, extracted his rib and used its DNA to form a complete woman. How do scientists clone?

What does science disagree with, exactly? God's methods?

If God healed you, would you still be in pain and suffering?

The impossible premises have been discussed at length with Jay.

Originally posted by Darfius
Even Hitler? What did they do to deserve it?

I think it's morally preferable that Hitler gets eternal bliss than that anyone, including Hitler, go to hell for eternity.

But, AThousandYoung, do you really think Hitler is not blameworthy, and might not be justly punished for a finite period of time?

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
I think it's morally preferable that Hitler gets eternal bliss than that anyone, including Hitler, go to hell for eternity.

But, AThousandYoung, do you really think Hitler is not blameworthy, and might not be justly punished for a finite period of time?

Morally preferable? Brb, I now have free reign to go slaughter millions of people because Pawn does not believe in justice.

Originally posted by Darfius
[b]You might as well have asked me whether a certain kid deserves presents from Santa Claus. I have no interest in answering such questions.

Nope. You can't.

Yes, for the same reason that all children disobey their parents. They test the boundaries and discover what they should and should not do.

I don't know about you, but my parents ...[text shortened]... sn't. You openly admit to THINKING we can't know. Your position is logically impossible.

[/b]

Nope. You can't.

Your question is retarded. If this is all you have left, I'm done with you.

I don't know about you, but my parents can't creatye universes with a word. If they could, I would be much more inclined not to disobey them.

Adam and Eve wouldn't have been around to see the creation of the universe, would they? How would they know who did it?

If you are constantly getting sick, and your parents are constantly getting sick, and you have the same symptoms as people with AIDS, and a medical professional tells you you have AIDS, would you believe you had AIDS or not? Of course.

Not! If everyone had it, it would cease to be diagnosed as an illness. It would be regarded the same as old age, and dying of it would be considered 'natural causes'.

Killing, because it has no reason most of the time. It's evil. "Torturing" is the just punishment for the crime.

Killing a murderer is not evil. Killing in self-defence is not evil. Torturing is evil.

How do you know we just think rather than know? What makes you the expert? I KNOW God exists. Atheists KNOW He doesn't. You openly admit to THINKING we can't know. Your position is logically impossible.

Not hardly. The word I used is 'believe'. Not 'think'. In this case, I KNOW that one of you must be wrong -- this is simple logic. A and B can't both be true!

Do you KNOW the atheist is wrong?

Your question is retarded. If this is all you have left, I'm done with you.

Why is my question retarded? Perhaps you should tell me why you won't answer it, rather than avoiding it and calling it "retarded."

Adam and Eve wouldn't have been around to see the creation of the universe, would they? How would they know who did it?

Adam knew for a fact what God could do. God was the first thing Adam saw when he opened his eyes. He knew God was a life giver. He walked with God everyday and God said "I have made all of this for you." So what didn't they know?

Not! If everyone had it, it would cease to be diagnosed as an illness. It would be regarded the same as old age, and dying of it would be considered 'natural causes'.

Where exactly did I say 'everyone' had it? Quit circumventing my questions and answer them.

Killing a murderer is not evil. Killing in self-defence is not evil. Torturing is evil.

Subjective. Subjective. Subjective. Basically you're OK'ing murder but veto'ing punishment. You scare me.

Not hardly. The word I used is 'believe'. Not 'think'. In this case, I KNOW that one of you must be wrong -- this is simple logic. A and B can't both be true!

Yes, one of us must be wrong and one must be right. Saying "I don't know." is simply not an option, unless of course you KNOW that He neither exists or does exist.

Do you KNOW the atheist is wrong?

Yes.

Originally posted by Darfius

Adam knew for a fact what God could do. God was the first thing Adam saw when he opened his eyes. He knew God was a life giver. He walked with God everyday and God said "I have made all of this for you." So what didn't they know?

Adam was the 2nd last thing created in the bible's account. He wasn't there when the sun, moon, or stars were created. He wasn't there when the animals were created. He wasn't awake when Eve was created. He would have to take god at his word.

Where exactly did I say 'everyone' had it? Quit circumventing my questions and answer them.

Your analogy compares sin to AIDS. If you want to use the analogy, I have every right to show you why the analogy is bad. Ordering me to answer questions will get you absolutely nowhere.

BDP: Killing a murderer is not evil. Killing in self-defence is not evil. Torturing is evil.

Subjective. Subjective. Subjective. Basically you're OK'ing murder but veto'ing punishment. You scare me.

What's really scary is to claim that there must be either hell or no hell, and that there are no other degrees of punishment, or acceptable forms of punishment. All or none, baby!!

You must not have a problem with subjectivity, since you labelled killing as evil.

I support punishment, but it should fit the crime. A robber should pay back what he stole with interest. A murderer should be imprisoned for life or executed. But neither of these deserves eternal torment -- at worst, the murder screws someone out of 100 years or less of their life, whereas HE is screwed for all eternity. 100 years is nothing compared to infinity. So the punishment is waaaaay out of proportion to the crime.

Saying "I don't know." is simply not an option, unless of course you KNOW that He neither exists or does exist.

What in the blue hell does this mean? If I KNEW whether god existed, then why would I say "I don't know" ?? 🙄🙄🙄

BDP: Do you KNOW the atheist is wrong?

Yes.

Good! So you place his belief at a higher level of validity than mine, even though, by your own admission, the thing he 'knows' is completely false. So much for the value of 'knowledge'.

Originally posted by Darfius
What you may believe and what may exist are seperate things. If hell exists, and your politcally correct view had been maintained, most of these kids would have later gone to hell.

Would you want that on your conscience, Maus?

Of course they are separate things. That's what belief is about. I am pleased that you finally recognize that your belief and reality may be different. Well done.

I may be wrong. Heaven and Hell may exist, but from my observation of the world, my reading of the Bible and other material tells me that I am not wrong.

Why is it believing that children should be with their parents, politically correct? What a strange comment. Perhaps you think kids are better off with Michael Jackson?

Are you telling me that if these kids had stayed with their parents, God (the loving and kind God that you seem so keen on) would have sent them to hell. Charming...

Originally posted by pcaspian
Read an article in N. Scientist and in a flurry of social experiments, seems when confronted with the thought of mortality, on avergage, people's level of anxiety rose quite substantially. In one study, people tended to become more insular when reminded of their mortality. They tended to group together where they shared common bonds. In another study, a gr ...[text shortened]... at either reject the notion of a Christian God, or do not believe in God at all.

thanks

PC

I worry about death a lot.

My death, her death, your death, dog's death, cat's death.

Death in the news, death on the street, death in the cold, death in the heat.

Death on the road, death in a car, death by bacteria infected jar.

Death on a train, death on a plane, death from a tiny cracked vain in my brain.

Death from a shock, death from a rock, death from an exit door that shouldn't be locked.

Death from a tree, death from a bee, death is always there waiting for me.

I worry about who I leave after the bell, but I'm certainly not worried I'm going to Hell.

(Do you bowl?)

Mr. 700

Originally posted by Darfius
Even Hitler? What did they do to deserve it?

You don't need to do anything to deserve happiness. You can do anything and still deserve happiness.

As I said before, the only moral purpose of punishing or hurting someone is to prevent greater pain. If we're talking about "deserving" then everyone deserves happiness. We're all flawed beings in a flawed world and we make our choices accordingly.

None of us knows whether Hitler is in Heaven, Hell, Nirvana, or has simply ceased to exist. Given that, it in no way affects other beings which can suffer and experience pleasure which of these is true. Therefore, I'd hope he was in Heaven. Wanting someone in Hell because you think they "deserve it" is cruel, petty, and immoral, and utterly unjust.

Now, if we who are still alive knew what Hitler's fate was, then I'd hope he would suffer a punishment - though not eternal punishment, as that's too extreme. Such a punishment would serve as a deterrent for others and would have served as a deterrent to him while he was alive. As this is not the case, punishing him is immoral and wrong.

Originally posted by Darfius
If it it is the study of how God things, then it is baseless to say "I believe in science, not God."

Yes, Genesis says God used the elements of the earth to create Adam. What does evolution say happened?

Yes, Genesis does say God put Adam to sleep, extracted his rib and used its DNA to form a complete woman. How do scientists clone?

What does sc ...[text shortened]... ill be in pain and suffering?

The impossible premises have been discussed at length with Jay.

Hmm. So you seem to be claiming that if science is the study of how God did things, then one must believe in God. In that case, science is not the study of how God did things. Instead it's the study of how things are whether or not God did them.

Genesis describes a mechanism in which Earth was directly transformed into man. The TOE does not agree with this mechanism. Now one can interpret Genesis to agree with evolution if you don't want to read Genesis literally, but I thought you felt that you were a Biblical literalist. Am I mistaken?

DNA is mentioned in Genesis? Which passage? Why are you bringing up cloning? I thought the rib story described the origin of the first woman. The TOE does not agree that the first woman was a clone of the first man. If she was, she wouldn't be a woman.

I am totally unaware of that discussion of my impossible premises. If you want to claim my premises are impossible, you should probably convince me directly instead of saying it was discussed with someone else at some other time. I might have something to say about my own premises.