Do you have relatives in hell?

Originally posted by orfeo
After all, there will be no more crying, no more death, no more pain.

If it's true that there is no pain in heaven, then it must be true that in heaven, there is either no knowledge of heaven's other residents or no compassion.

If there were both knowledge and compassion, then you would look around and know if any of your loved ones were not among the heavenly ranks. If any were missing, you would know that they are suffering eteranal torment, and if you had compassion you would feel pain.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
If it's true that there is no pain in heaven, then it must be true that in heaven, there is either no knowledge of heaven's other residents or no compassion.

If there were both knowledge and compassion, then you would look around and know if any of your loved ones were not among the heavenly ranks. If any were missing, you would know that they are suffering eteranal torment, and if you had compassion you would feel pain.

I haven't the time (nor generally the patience) for many of these discussions. But if I may add a brief recommendation. C.S. Lewis' The Great Divorce is a fascinating little book. It is important to read his preface, where he lays out the ground rules for what is to follow. The book can be read in a weekend, and I'd like to think that you wouldn't regret the two hours spent reading.

If you were in Heaven and discovered your best bud didn't make the cut, you would make like Orpheus and mount a commando raid to get him out of Hell.
Sounds like fun.

Originally posted by kingdanwa
I haven't the time (nor generally the patience) for many of these discussions. But if I may add a brief recommendation. C.S. Lewis' The Great Divorce is a fascinating little book. It is important to read his preface, where he lays out the ground rules for what is to follow. The book can be read in a weekend, and I'd like to think that you wouldn't regret the two hours spent reading.

I will follow this suggestion and report back after the weekend.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
If it's true that there is no pain in heaven, then it must be true that in heaven, there is either no knowledge of heaven's other residents or no compassion.

If there were both knowledge and compassion, then you would look around and know if any of your loved ones were not among the heavenly ranks. If any were missing, you would know that they are suffering eteranal torment, and if you had compassion you would feel pain.

Entirely plausible.

I should probably read the CS Lewis book too, if I can track it down.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
If it's true that there is no pain in heaven, then it must be true that in heaven, there is either no knowledge of heaven's other residents or no compassion.

If there were both knowledge and compassion, then you would look around and know if any of your loved ones were not among the heavenly ranks. If any were missing, you would know that they are suffering eteranal torment, and if you had compassion you would feel pain.

There is something wrong here:

God created us, right? He had the option to create us to hang out in His presence and enjoy
the bounty of His eternal Love, right? But instead He created us the way we are -- hanging out
in a world surrounded by suffering, evil, temptation and all that stuff.

The justification I've heard is something along the lines of 'You can't Love God wholly unless
you've had the opportunity to reject Him' or 'You can't appreciate Love if you don't appreciate
loss/suffering/evil' or whatever.

BUT: if when we go to heaven, there is no knowledge of these things (because how could we bring
anything less than perfect into heaven), how are we better off or different than if we had just
started there in the first place?

!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nemesio

When I was growing up I was taught that our earthly existence contains all the hell we ever need; some of my relatives certainly do live as though they had already pitched a tent beside the fiery lake. (Looking forward to doing some wind-surfing myself).

Originally posted by telerion
Pity. I had not counted on laziness or fear. Since you, at the very least, tell yourself (and others) that you believe hell is a real place, it would do you some good to think on the victims who are suffering there right now. Their anguish will not expire. In this moment, they know that there is no chance ever. But then very few xians like to think suc ...[text shortened]... to do so, than master the art of self-deception and exist, anesthetized, in a fog of confusion.

I have thought about the "victims" of suffering in hell (thank you for asking). While the punishment of eternal suffering is beyond our comprehension, we have to remember that those souls are there because of deliberate, knowing actions they've committed that warrant such a punishment. It is not for me to say what those crimes are, and I pray that no human being will die with his/her soul in a state that would bring upon themselves such a punishment.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Is it permitted for a Roman-Catholic to assume a particular person or a somebody is in heaven?

Is it required for a Roman-Catholic to assume all particular persons are in heaven?

Is it permitted for a Roman-Catholic to assume a particular person or a somebody is in heaven?

Yes - the saints.

Is it required for a Roman-Catholic to assume all particular persons are in heaven?

Meaning?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
If the people that you would like to see there don't make the cut, will it still be a perfect place for you?

If people I would like to see there aren't there it's probably because they did something while they were alive that I didn't know about. I'll know exactly what it was, and why it merited exclusion from Heaven, if/when I get there.

Originally posted by Nemesio
There is something wrong here:

God created us, right? He had the option to create us to hang out in His presence and enjoy
the bounty of His eternal Love, right? But instead He created us the way we are -- hanging out
in a world surrounded by suffering, evil, temptation and all that stuff.

The justification I've heard is something along the lines ...[text shortened]... or different than if we had just
started there in the first place?

!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nemesio

He had the option to create us to hang out in His presence and enjoy the bounty of His eternal Love, right?

Not after Original Sin.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
If people I would like to see there aren't there it's probably because they did something while they were alive that I didn't know about. I'll know exactly what it was, and why it merited exclusion from Heaven, if/when I get there.

Will heaven still be a perfect place for you?

Originally posted by lucifershammer

Is it required for a Roman-Catholic to assume all particular persons are in heaven?

Meaning?

Ivanhoe claimed that you may not assume a particular person is in hell.

Suppose you contemplate that person's fate after he dies. As you always insist, you can't know his fate, so your contemplation will take the form of assumptions. Since you are disallowed to assume he is in hell, and there are only two options, then you must assume that person is in heaven.

The only other option is to not contemplate that person's fate.

(Well, I guess there's a third case. The Church can simply decree that somebody is a saint and therefore in heaven, at which point you are required to believe that person is in heaven. But then I have to ask, why does the Church get to contemplate people's fates, such as potential saints, if the lower members are forbidden to? If the Church follows the same rules as the lower members regarding contemplating people's fates, then it must be the case that your are required to assume all people are in heaven.)

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Will heaven still be a perfect place for you?

Absolutely.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Absolutely.

So, it wouldn't be better if those loved ones were with you instead of roasting in separation?