08 Jan '08 05:40>
Originally posted by PinkFloydI see a "blindly following dogma" problem here. 🙄
I see a "big picture" problem here. In Sunday School, I was taught that we don't choose God---He chooses Us!
Originally posted by PinkFloydThere are two ways of looking at this. One the one hand he chooses us as we have no free will. The other is to say he chooses us because he knows the desires of our heart and what our free will would be if given a choice. I choose the latter.
I see a "big picture" problem here. In Sunday School, I was taught that we don't choose God---He chooses Us!
Originally posted by whodeyActually, this means we have no free will, since we cannot do anything that god doesn't already know we'll do. Since he is eternal and the creator of everything, it leaves him looking a lot like a maker of clockwork devices, so happy in himself when they do what they are designed to.
Biblically we are confronted with two facts. On the one hand we are told that it is God's will that none should perish thus eliminating the possibility that he created us to reject him. The other fact is that God knows what path we will choose as seen with Judas and the 12 disciples. It was prophesied well in advance that he would go down the wrong path. ...[text shortened]... and, at the same time, God merely knows what that destiny will entail down to the last detail.
Originally posted by scottishinnzSo are you saying an all powerful and all knowing God cannot create free will within us even though he may know the outcome?
Actually, this means we have no free will, since we cannot do anything that god doesn't already know we'll do. Since he is eternal and the creator of everything, it leaves him looking a lot like a maker of clockwork devices, so happy in himself when they do what they are designed to.
Originally posted by whodeyHe can know it when it can be known, that does not mean He cannot
So are you saying an all powerful and all knowing God cannot create free will within us even though he may know the outcome?
Originally posted by whodeyThat depends on whether you believe such an entity must be internally logically consistent.
So are you saying an all powerful and all knowing God cannot create free will within us even though he may know the outcome?
Originally posted by scottishinnzSo you are saying it is impossible to be logically consistent and still provide creation with free will even though he knows the outcome? It is impossible for an all powerful God?
That depends on whether you believe such an entity must be internally logically consistent.
If the answer is yes, God must be internally consistent, then the answer is no.
Originally posted by whodeyIt is not impossible for an all powerful God.
So you are saying it is impossible to be logically consistent and still provide creation with free will even though he knows the outcome? It is impossible for an all powerful God?
Originally posted by whodeyIf I'm understand his objection he is saying creating a free will being
So you are saying it is impossible to be logically consistent and still provide creation with free will even though he knows the outcome? It is impossible for an all powerful God?
Originally posted by KellyJayI gottcha. 😉
If I'm understand his objection he is saying creating a free will being
is like drawing a square circle nothing more if you know all things,
The objection being, if you know all things how you build us you
knowing what we will do if you build us this way or that, therefore as
soon as you create us, you set our futures in the stone so to speak
by the ...[text shortened]... now. Having
us around more than likely adds to that by leaps and bounds in
my opinion.
Kelly
Originally posted by whodeyGood point.
I gottcha. 😉
Perhaps you are right, however, just because one cannot logically work out a problem does not mean that it cannot be done, rather, it simply means that you may not have the intellect and/or knowledge to do so. After all, how does one give another free will let alone create their physical body from dust? Logical, perhaps but how so?
Originally posted by KellyJayI'm sure that not everyone would agree with me. Some would bodly say that if I can't work out something logically then it can't be done. However, we all were children one day and at that time had limitations in our reasoning ability compared to our further intellectual development as an adult, however, once we reach our zenith as an adult in terms of reasoning abilities we assume that we have "arrived" so to speak. Nothing then is beyond our reasoning abilities it seems. Especially if we are gifted in that area compared to the averagae person with degrees and certifications to go along with it.
Good point.
Kelly
Originally posted by whodeyIt's not that I can't work it out logically. In that way, I have nothing to do with it. The simple fact is that having an omniscient being who knows what you WILL do, and then claiming free will (that you could do anything else) is logically IMPOSSIBLE. The two are directly contradictory statements, and both cannot be true, since they are mutually exclusive.
I gottcha. 😉
Perhaps you are right, however, just because one cannot logically work out a problem does not mean that it cannot be done, rather, it simply means that you may not have the intellect and/or knowledge to do so. After all, how does one give another free will let alone create their physical body from dust? Logical, perhaps but how so?