Originally posted by scottishinnz This is exactly the crux of the argument. You know you must pay taxes, although are free not to do so. The simple fact is if you do the crime, you must do the time.
However, life is more complex than this trifle of an example. Understanding and accepting or rejecting God is more complex than accepting the existence of taxation. Why? Bec ...[text shortened]... ee will to not pay tax, but hopefully the intellectual ability to realise it's not a good idea.
What if all were true and yet, you didn't pay your taxes what then?
Kelly
Originally posted by scottishinnz This is exactly the crux of the argument. You know you must pay taxes, although are free not to do so. The simple fact is if you do the crime, you must do the time.
However, life is more complex than this trifle of an example. Understanding and accepting or rejecting God is more complex than accepting the existence of taxation. Why? Bec ...[text shortened]... ee will to not pay tax, but hopefully the intellectual ability to realise it's not a good idea.
You walk up to a cliff you step off you die, you choose not step off,
some do and die that is free will. The fact that things happen good or
bad due to choices you make does not mean the choices are not
there only that there are good and bad things that can happen due
to the choices we make.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJay What if all were true and yet, you didn't pay your taxes what then?
Kelly
I'd get sent to jail. That's why I don't do it, despite having that freedom.
My knowledge makes the choice blindingly obvious, but that doesn't mean I don't have a choice.
[edit; an omniscient, omnipotent God could easily make humans smart enough so that no-one would reject him, despite having the capability to. He chose not to.
Originally posted by scottishinnz No he didn't. He merely said people were smart enough to not reject, even though they could if they chose to.
Actually, I avoided using the word 'reject' because I didn't want to make [or even give the appearance I was making] the "sin = rejection of God/God's word/God's law" argument.
I think the confusion started with the word 'evil', which can mean "sinful" (with all the religious connotations), but also "morally reprehensible". I was using it with the latter meaning in mind.
Originally posted by SwissGambit Actually, I avoided using the word 'reject' because I didn't want to make [or even give the appearance I was making] the "sin = rejection of God/God's word/God's law" argument.
I think the confusion started with the word 'evil', which can mean "sinful" (with all the religious connotations), but also "morally reprehensible". I was using it with the latter meaning in mind.
Apologies. I believe my argument stands equally firm, though.
Originally posted by scottishinnz I'd get sent to jail. That's why I don't do it, despite having that freedom.
My knowledge makes the choice blindingly obvious, but that doesn't mean I don't have a choice.
[edit; an omniscient, omnipotent God could easily make humans smart enough so that no-one would reject him, despite having the capability to. He chose not to.
I wonder why?]
Again, it goes back to,( and if they were) and they still walked away?
If you read it wasn't like Adam and Eve rejeted God to His face, since
they had conversations with God directly, it was that they wanted
something they were told they could not have and took it, knowing
better. It was blindingly obvious and like you always have a choice
to pay your taxes or not they had one too.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJay Again, it goes back to,( and if they were) and they still walked away?
If you read it wasn't like Adam and Eve rejeted God to His face, since
they had conversations with God directly, it was that they wanted
something they were told they could not have and took it, knowing
better. It was blindingly obvious and like you always have a choice
to pay your taxes or not they had one too.
Kelly
The entire Adam and Eve fall is interesting because, on the one hand, they seemed to have an adequate concept of death yet, on the other hand, did not seem to know what "sin" was all about. Once they partook of the fruit the scripture says that only then were their eyes "opened". The serpent also told them that they would be as "gods" knowing good from evil. I interpret this to mean that they then became their own moral agents rather than relying on their Creator in full.
Originally posted by KellyJay Again, it goes back to,( and if they were) and they still walked away?
If you read it wasn't like Adam and Eve rejeted God to His face, since
they had conversations with God directly, it was that they wanted
something they were told they could not have and took it, knowing
better. It was blindingly obvious and like you always have a choice
to pay your taxes or not they had one too.
Kelly
And the moment God appears to me, or anyone else, the way he did to Adam and Eve this will be valid. Until then it's merely hand-waving.
Originally posted by scottishinnz And the moment God appears to me, or anyone else, the way he did to Adam and Eve this will be valid. Until then it's merely hand-waving.
You can call it hand waving all you want, the bottom line is that in
this life today we judge people for what they do, given that they
knew better only adds to it.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJay You can call it hand waving all you want, the bottom line is that in
this life today we judge people for what they do, given that they
knew better only adds to it.
Kelly
No, you are trying to equate the situation in the Garden of Eden (fictional) with the situation now. They are not comparable, as I pointed out. You may as well have the good graces to concede the point.
Originally posted by scottishinnz No, you are trying to equate the situation in the Garden of Eden (fictional) with the situation now. They are not comparable, as I pointed out. You may as well have the good graces to concede the point.
Outside of the time frame and one is a written record/story it is the
same thing we hold people accountable for what they do, and you want
to blame God for the same thing. If enough knowledge was there to
let everyone know what was right and wrong, and still the choices were
bad that is cause for judgment yet God went to redeem.
Kelly
does god really get angry???
06 Jan '08 03:07
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