Doubt good, certainty bad

-Removed-

answer the question, does the Bible state that there is a time to hate or does it not. No
excuses, we shall get to whether hatred is appropriate/inappropriate after you fess up! I
am perfectly aware of what Jesus commanded, but the Bible is a rather large book, if
you managed to get past Matthew , Mark, Luke and John you might know this.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
What the individual does with that knowledge is entirely up to them.

If you decide to "hate" a person or some people, this would be in accordance with JW teaching? The JW organisation does not say when the "certain conditions" for "hating" to be "proper" have been met?

Originally posted by FMF
If you decide to "hate" a person or some people, this would be in accordance with JW teaching? The JW organisation does not say when the "certain conditions" for "hating" to be "proper" have been met?

i have produced extensive texts demonstrating when its appropriate, when its
inappropriate and towards whom and on what basis, you may make reference to any of
those. I will not do so again simply because you have failed to read them, because if
you had, you would not be asking this question, for you would know what Jehovahs
Witnesses teach in this regard.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i have produced extensive texts demonstrating when its appropriate, when its
inappropriate and towards whom, you may make reference to any of those. I will not
do so again simply because you have failed to read them, because if you had, you
would not be asking this question, for you would know what Jehovahs Witnesses teach
in this regard.

Yes, the text you cited talked of hatred of God in terms of "intense hostility" and "sustained ill will" and "malice" and "consuming emotion" and "strong dislike". These are all very woolly, relative terms, robbie. Does the JW organisation ever define terms like "intense" or "ill will" or "consuming" or "dislike"? Or can individual JW members like yourself just go ahead and hate people who they perceive to display the above mentioned characteristics without instruction [in the form of specific definitions and a definition of the "certain conditions"] from your organisation?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i have produced extensive texts demonstrating when its appropriate, when its
inappropriate and towards whom and on what basis, you may make reference to any of
those. I will not do so again simply because you have failed to read them, because if
you had, you would not be asking this question, for you would know what Jehovahs
Witnesses teach in this regard.

Any thoughts on that 21st century example?

Originally posted by FMF
Yes, the text you cited talked of hatred of God in terms of "intense hostility" and "sustained ill will" and "malice" and "consuming emotion" and "strong dislike". These are all very woolly, relative terms, robbie. Does the JW organisation ever define terms like "intense" or "ill will" or "consuming" or "dislike"? Or can individual JW members like yourself just ...[text shortened]... tions and a definition of the "certain conditions"] from your organisation?

Yes we define Biblical terms, phrases, words, concepts, doctrines all the time, with
references to commentaries, expositions, Biblical examples, etc If you read my text
you can see that it was peppered with examples. what a witness does with these
examples, definitions, explanations is entirely up to them, now stated for the third time,
i will not do so again.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Any thoughts on that 21st century example?

no not yet, please be patient, Ill try to think of something.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Any thoughts on that 21st century example?

You know Pk, i cannot think of anything really, its hard as there are no longer any
miracles, this is taken from the Awake 12th December 1997,

The psalmist sheds some light on this issue at Psalm 139:21, 22: “Do I not hate
those who are intensely hating you, O Jehovah, and do I not feel a loathing for those
revolting against you? With a complete hatred I do hate them. They have become
to me real enemies.” Our loyalty to Jehovah and his principles should generate in us
a strong dislike of those who deliberately revolt against Jehovah and who take a
stand as God’s enemies. Satan and the demons are among such confirmed enemies
of God. Some humans also likely fall into this category. Yet, it may be very
difficult for a Christian to identify such people from outward appearances. We cannot
read hearts. (Jeremiah 17:9, 10) It would be wrong to assume that one is an
unreformable enemy of God because he or she is practising wrong. In many cases
wrongdoers simply do not know God’s standards.


so its not so easy to identify those who are truly haters of God for the reasons cited.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Yes we define Biblical terms, phrases, words, concepts, doctrines all the time, with
references to commentaries, expositions, Biblical examples, etc If you read my text
you can see that it was peppered with examples. what a witness does with these
examples, definitions, explanations is entirely up to them, now stated for the third time,
i will not do so again.

I have read your text. So if you decide, with reference to Biblical examples, that someone is a hater of God, the JW organisation instructs you to hate them "in the truest sense, which is to regard with extreme and active aversion, to consider as loathsome, odious, filthy, to detest", right? That was in the Watchtower article you quoted in full on about page 11.

This is where I become baffled, robbie. The article clearly states that "We [that is Jehovah's Witnesses] must hate in the truest sense...". That sounds like an instruction to me. In the same article it says "Haters of God and his people are to be hated". Sounds like an instruction, again. And yet here you are saying that whether or not Jehovah's Witnesses "hate in the truest sense" is "entirely up to them". I don't see how you can have it both ways.

Originally posted by FMF
I have read your text. So if you decide, with reference to Biblical examples, that someone is a hater of God, the JW organisation instructs you to hate them "in the truest sense, which is to regard with extreme and active aversion, to consider as loathsome, odious, filthy, to detest", right? That was in the Watchtower article you quoted in full on about page 11. truest sense" is "entirely up to them". I don't see how you can have it both ways.

How indeed does one decide who is an enemy of God and who is not? Its not that easy
FMF and its entirely up to the individual to do so. You may find this relevant, taken
from the Awake of December 1997,

Yet, it may be very difficult for a Christian to identify such people from outward
appearances. We cannot read hearts. (Jeremiah 17:9, 10) It would be wrong to assume
that one is an unreformable enemy of God because he or she is practising wrong. In
many cases wrongdoers simply do not know God’s standards.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
How indeed does one decide who is an enemy of God and who is not? Its not that easy
FMF and its entirely up to the individual to do so. You may find this relevant, taken
from the Awake of December 1997,

Yet, it may be very difficult for a Christian to identify such people from outward
appearances. We cannot read hearts. (Jeremiah 17:9, 10 ...[text shortened]... se he or she is practising wrong. In
many cases wrongdoers simply do not know God’s standards.

So really you have no way of knowing who to hate.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
How indeed does one decide who is an enemy of God and who is not? Its not that easy
FMF and its entirely up to the individual to do so.

It maybe "not that easy" as you say, and yet you are told you "must hate" them. Does the JW organisation help you define and decide? Material you have posted [on page 11 for instance] makes it quite clear that you are instructed to hate "haters of God" and here you are again saying "its entirely up to the individual [JWs] to do so". Can you explain how you can seek to have it both ways like this?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
So really you have no way of knowing who to hate.

Yes i suppose that could be the case, our hatred is limited towards those who display
an enmity towards God, that would include spirit creatures like Satan and the
daemonic hordes and certain humans adjudged to be irredeemable although not
specifically defined.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Yes i suppose that could be the case, our hatred is limited towards [among others...] certain humans adjudged to be irredeemable although not specifically defined.

But surely they must be "defined" if they have been "adjudged to be irredeemable"?

JW members get to "adjudge" autonomously, while under instructions to "hate" them if they are "irredeemable", and all this without definitions from your organisation? This does not add up, robbie.

Originally posted by FMF
It maybe "not that easy" as you say, and yet you are told you "must hate" them. Does the JW organisation help you define and decide? Material you have posted [on page 11 for instance] makes it quite clear that you are instructed to hate "haters of God" and here you are again saying "its entirely up to the individual [JWs] to do so". Can you explain how you can seek to have it both ways like this?

yes but who is a hater of God? clearly it made reference to Satan and the daemonic
hordes, and the latter article stipulated that it would likely include some humans,
although not specifically identified. If someone cannot be described as a hater of God,
then there is no reason to hate, its only if they have given incontrovertible proof that
they hate God and therefore they put themselves a position to be hated, if there are
none and none can be identified then no one is in a position to display enmity are they.
Good grief, its not like we are instructed to go around identifying persons to be
recipients of our animosity because we are instructed in scripture to loath those who
demonstrate a hatred towards God, is it.