Doubt good, certainty bad

Originally posted by googlefudge
There is a word for trusting other people.... it's trust.

Faith and trust do not mean the same thing.


If he is using faith to mean trust then he is being unclear.

This is a forum for discussing spirituality philosophy and religion.

The word faith has overt religious connotations and it's most prominent two meanings are
"to believe without ...[text shortened]... does not mean trust. If he means trust he should say trust.

Faith means something else

I just think whodey is trying to muddy the water. But he'll be along to clarify.

Originally posted by FMF
I just think whodey is trying to muddy the water. But he'll be along to clarify.

Maybe this will help: Some say trust is earned and faith is given.

http://www.acts17-11.com/dialogs_faith.html

Originally posted by kevcvs57
Just another circular argument; all the stability and unchanging certainty that you claim for Christianity or any religion is based upon them being true rather than a delusion created by the winds of change interacting with a human desire for truth and certainty.

Christianity is itself the result of schism between those who adhered to the old testament/Torah and a new sect of Jews. It seems God is also driven by the prevailing winds.

First of all I haven't claimed anything, you are talking pure straw! a straw factory of
straw in fact! Yes our God is unchanging but our understanding of his will and purposes
as recorded in the sacred text is under constant revision, even Paul acknowledges this
when he states, 'at present we see by means of a hazy mirror'. My contention is that
non theists have derived their values not from any type of independent thought
inspired through some kind of doubt but from social convention.

Originally posted by googlefudge
There is a word for trusting other people.... it's trust.

Faith and trust do not mean the same thing.


If he is using faith to mean trust then he is being unclear.

This is a forum for discussing spirituality philosophy and religion.

The word faith has overt religious connotations and it's most prominent two meanings are
"to believe without ...[text shortened]... does not mean trust. If he means trust he should say trust.

Faith means something else

Then what does faith mean to you? For me, if God says you should to "X" then I do "X". Why? It is because I trust him and his wisdom on the matter and that he is benevolent. If not, then my faith is misplaced.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
My contention is that
non theists have derived their values not from any type of independent thought
inspired through some kind of doubt but from social convention.

Religion is social convention. Quoting from religionist literature is not "independent thought".

Originally posted by FMF
Doubt is absent? How so?

Don't let me put words in your mouth then, do you or do you not have doubts that the Bible is inspired by God?

Originally posted by googlefudge
How can you possibly know with absolute certainty that you HAVE the truth so as not to doubt it?

One of my favorite verses in the Bible is in Daniel as three of God's followers are about to be burned alive for not bowing down to idols. They turn to the king and tell him that surely God would deliver them, but if not, they will still not bow down to their graven images.

For me, this is faith, even though there is an element of doubt. Basically, you are sure that God wills you to do "X" and believe he will have your back, but at the same time acknowledge he is God and, therefore, cannot be 100% known on how he will respond. Without such resolution, you cave.

Originally posted by whodey
Don't let me put words in your mouth then, do you or do you not have doubts that the Bible is inspired by God?

I don't think the Bible is inspired by God. I spent at least a couple of decades assuming it was and then my doubts led to a reappraisal and now I no longer subscribe to it.

Originally posted by FMF
I don't think the Bible is inspired by God. I spent at least a couple of decades assuming it was and then my doubts led to a reappraisal and now I no longer subscribe to it.

So you have no doubts about it?

Originally posted by whodey
So you have no doubts about it?

About what?

Originally posted by FMF
Religion is social convention. Quoting from religionist literature is not "independent thought".

what is this Strawberry Sunday near Strawburgh? I never stated that quoting from
scripture is independent thought, did I? My assertion is primarily with regard to non
theists and the claim that some type of doubt (not exactly specified) leads to
independent thought or lack of, stifles independent thought and encourages dogma, nor
do I think adherence to a religion is social convention, indeed, there are many
instances where persons have, because of adherence to their religion, baulked at and
stood against social convention.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
nor do I think adherence to a religion is social convention, indeed, there are
many instances where persons have, because of adherence to their religion, baulked
at and stood against social conventions.

Religion is in my view social convention. That someone might have rebelled against conventions in a particular place or time or for whatever reason does not mean that Religion is not in and of itself a form of social convention.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I never stated that quoting from
scripture is independent thought, did I?

Then you are expressing yourself poorly. What were you referring to when you said "independent thought"?

Originally posted by FMF
Religion is in my view social convention. That someone might have rebelled against conventions in a particular place or time or for whatever reason does not mean that Religion is not in and of itself a form of social convention.

Ok that's fine, when you are talking of doubt, what type of doubt are you referring to,
because its not exactly clear, in my mind at least.

Originally posted by FMF
Then you are expressing yourself poorly. What were you referring to when you said "independent thought"?

Its very clear in my mind, the argument is that doubt leads to independent thought and
helps one remain free of dogma, this was my intent, what is obscure about that?