Originally posted by robbie carrobieSo, we have an example that doubt can stimulate intellectual curiosity. It also forced g75 to find an explanation for certain verses that do not seem to fit the theory at first glance. It would be much easier to downplay or ignore such verses, but a healthy measure of self-doubt forces the believer to look deeper. Either there must be a reasonable interpretation of the verses that fits the theory, or the theory must be discarded, or biblical inerrancy must be abandoned in some way. Anything less is just incoherent. The result is that their knowledge expands due to the motivation of doubt.
Hmmm, one does not take the props of the mine shaft down all at once, its like the
castled position of the King, we loosen the mortar first rather than hit our heads off the
castle walls, but i understand that in this instance there was enough doubt poured upon
the teaching to stimulate intellectual curiosity, so yes in this instance it led to the wise
choice of questioning the teaching.
Obviously, there can be too great a level of doubt, where one is just completely skeptical about everything, regardless of how strong the evidence may be. I don't think anyone here is promoting that.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieUnquestioning faith and certainty about things concerning speculation and imagination, and the supernatural, especially if it has been codified in order to facilitate conformity, is not 'independent thought" to my way of thinking.
Its very clear in my mind, the argument is that doubt leads to independent thought and
helps one remain free of dogma, this was my intent, what is obscure about that?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieNot accepting something unquestioningly, retaining enough scepticism to be as objective as possible, an ability/willingness to change one's mind - doubt in this sense.
Ok that's fine, when you are talking of doubt, what type of doubt are you referring to,
because its not exactly clear, in my mind at least.
Originally posted by SwissGambitdoubt, hmm, it was perhaps doubt on someone's part but the Gman knew that it was
So, we have an example that doubt can stimulate intellectual curiosity. It also forced g75 to find an explanation for certain verses that do not seem to fit the theory at first glance. It would be much easier to downplay or ignore such verses, but a healthy measure of self-doubt forces the believer to look deeper. Either there must be a reasonable ...[text shortened]... ing, regardless of how strong the evidence may be. I don't think anyone here is promoting that.
inconceivable that a loving God would eternally torment persons, who are already
disposed towards sin by their very nature.
Originally posted by whodeyThe very concept of a god talking to an individual is whacked out in my opinion.
Then what does faith mean to you? For me, if God says you should to "X" then I do "X". Why? It is because I trust him and his wisdom on the matter and that he is benevolent. If not, then my faith is misplaced.
Like a biologist trying to grow a strain of yeast won't be picking out one and go 'you are the one I need to talk to the rest of your strain'.
The biologist would instead do whatever experiment was at hand, running hydrochloric acid to clean out the petri dish (talks to all of them at once) or dropping a nutrient mixture on the whole thing, again, talking to the whole strain. She wouldn't drop one picoliter of nutrient on on yeast cell and give it a special message, follow me and I will lead you to an infinite supply of food....
Originally posted by FMFbut this is the prerogative of reason, not doubt. If the stance is based upon reason will
Not accepting something unquestioningly, retaining enough scepticism to be as objective as possible, an ability/willingness to change one's mind - doubt in this sense.
it not stimulate and appeal to the mind rather than stifle it whereas if its based solely
on dogma then no amount of doubt or reason will overturn it, for it came about, not
through reason, but quite the opposite, unreasoning.
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieReason must include skepticism or it is not reason.
but this is the prerogative of reason, not doubt. If the stance is based upon reason will
it not stimulate and appeal to the mind rather than stifle it whereas if its based solely
on dogma then no amount of doubt or reason will overturn it, for it came about, not
through reason, but quite the opposite, unreasoning.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie"Yes our God is unchanging but our understanding of his will and purposes as recorded in the sacred text is under constant revision,"
First of all I haven't claimed anything, you are talking pure straw! a straw factory of
straw in fact! Yes our God is unchanging but our understanding of his will and purposes
as recorded in the sacred text is under constant revision, even Paul acknowledges this
when he states, 'at present we see by means of a hazy mirror'. My contention is t ...[text shortened]... type of independent thought
inspired through some kind of doubt but from social convention.
LOL so atheists doubt whilst theists revise, right I see.
" My contention is that non theists have derived their values not from any type of independent thought inspired through some kind of doubt but from social convention."
Social Conventions are generated by, and evolve because of, independent thought. How could you not have realized that when you were typing it in.
Sorry I missed that, you were saying something about straw?
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Originally posted by kevcvs57this is not so fine, independent thought exists despite and sometimes at variance with
"Yes our God is unchanging but our understanding of his will and purposes as recorded in the sacred text is under constant revision,"
LOL so atheists doubt whilst theists revise, right I see.
" My contention is that non theists have derived their values not from any type of independent thought inspired through some kind of doubt but from social conven when you were typing it in.
Sorry I missed that, you were saying something about straw?
social convention, perhaps there is a symbiotic relationship that you mention I dunno.
When was the last time you seen a non rectangular/square frame housing a painting in
a gallery? or someone wearing two necktie's to work? If independent thought is able to
change social convention, why did 1 million people march against the Iraq war in
London, yet the Iraqi widows mourned their dead by the tens of thousands? No no,
independent thought exists despite social convention, social convention in turn foments
values.
yes you had more straw in your post than strawberry milk shake sucked through a
super curly straw coloured straw made in the straw factory at strawtingham!
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieIt may have for you, I suppose. Personally I don't see why or how, at least not inherently. Are you trying to spin the meaning of the word? Fear, you say?
ok, that's understandable, but doubt has connotations of fear.
If, for you, doubt has connotations of fear, can't "certainty" also have connotations of fear? What about "hope" too? It seems you can declare many things to have connotations of "fear".