Originally posted by The Chess ExpressSo, you would say that at least one of Father John and Rabbi Shekelmeister does not have true faith, correct?
I would argue that these sorts of contradictions are the product of blind faith. If they both had true faith, they wouldn’t disagree.
Many people use the word faith in different ways. Faith for example is typically used to mean a persons religion.
According to scripture though, faith means the proof of things unseen.
Originally posted by aspviper666
well i happen to have died a clinical death back in 1978
i had gotten my biracial artery severed in an accident
i nearly bled 8 units they estimated 1/2 my blood was gone.
i died on the op table and was brought back a few minutes later.
i had lived a good xtian life, was full of the spirit, went to church, prayed. tithed, did all i could to be good and not sin. When i did sin i confessed it to god and my pastor.
in spite of this i went to hell. It was a bottomless pit or abyss when i stopped falling i saw a huge flaming skull devouring people.
then i saw a hot dry desert. I told god he was a lair and a cheat and he could go get bent.
the surgeons and doctors revived me i remember then seeing myself in my bed. I never claimed to be an xtain from that day forward
Many people who are now saints have had visions of hell one way or the other. The three children who had visions of hell in the context of the apparitions of the Virgin Mary in Fatima is a famous example. There are many other instances.
Why do you think God lied to you ?
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressSo, for example, if I experience Allah, and then become a vehicle for Salam (peace)
It may have sounded like that, but that was not my intention. I don't consider other peoples accounts of Jesus to be proof for me.
Those who experience God, prove God to themselves. This is the point, to experience God for yourself. Other peoples personal experiences with God can only encourage us.
and Taslim (submission to the Almighty), and demonstrate a life of fidelity, charity,
honesty, honor, and righteousness, you would find this to be an expression of holiness?
Nemesio
3 edits
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressFascinating.
Yes, either one does and one doesn’t, or else neither has.
I've never met two people of faith, two Christians, two Protestants, two Lutherans, even two Lutherans within the same congregation whose faiths are identical. Doesn't it follow from your notion of faith that at most one of these believers has true faith, and that the all of the rest do not have true faith? Do you think you are the one guy with the true faith, and that when the others claim to have faith, they are simply mistaken, that is, that they don't have true faith? Do you think that there will be just one guy in heaven?
2 edits
Originally posted by ivanhoeMany people who are now saints have had visions of hell one way or the other. The three children who had visions of hell in the context of the apparitions of the Virgin Mary in Fatima is a famous example. There are many other instances.
[b]Originally posted by aspviper666
well i happen to have died a clinical death back in 1978
i had gotten my biracial artery severed in an accident
i nearly bled 8 units they estimated 1/2 my blood was gone.
i died on the op table and was brought back a few minutes later.
i had lived a good xtian life, was full of the spirit, went to church, pray ...[text shortened]... tima is a famous example. There are many other instances.
Why do you think God lied to you ?
[/b]The children of Fatima were assured that they were not going to go to hell. In that account, it has been said that if they were not given this assurance they would have died of fright.
Why do you think God lied to you ?
In no way do I think God has lied to me.
1 edit
Originally posted by DoctorScribbleshttp://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PK0.HTM
Does the Catholic Church teach that faith and knowledge are equivalent, or is this an idea unique to Chess Express?
I have always seen doubt as an estimate of one's lack of certainty in one's faith. Faith necessarily entails a lack of certainty, and thus entails some doubt.
Knowledge is knowing.
Wisdom is true knowledge and true understanding and acting upon it truthfully and justly.
Proverbs
Chapter 1
1
1 The Proverbs of Solomon, the son of David, king of Israel:
2 2 That men may appreciate wisdom and discipline, may understand words of intelligence;
3 May receive training in wise conduct, in what is right, just and honest;
4 3 That resourcefulness may be imparted to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.
5 A wise man by hearing them will advance in learning, an intelligent man will gain sound guidance,
6 That he may comprehend proverb and parable, the words of the wise and their riddles.
7 4 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; wisdom and instruction fools despise.
8 5 Hear, my son, your father's instruction, and reject not your mother's teaching;
9 A graceful diadem will they be for your head; a torque for your neck.
10 My son, should sinners entice you,
11 and say, "Come along with us! Let us lie in wait for the honest man, let us, unprovoked, set a trap for the innocent;
12 Let us swallow them up, as the nether world does, alive, in the prime of life, like those who go down to the pit!
13 All kinds of precious wealth shall we gain, we shall fill our houses with booty;
14 Cast in your lot with us, we shall all have one purse!" -
15 My son, walk not in the way with them, hold back your foot from their path!
16 (For their feet run to evil, they hasten to shed blood.)
17 6 It is in vain that a net is spread before the eyes of any bird -
18 These men lie in wait for their own blood, they set a trap for their own lives.
19 This is the fate of everyone greedy of loot: unlawful gain takes away the life of him who acquires it.
20 7 Wisdom cries aloud in the street, in the open squares she raises her voice;
21 Down the crowded ways she calls out, at the city gates she utters her words:
22 "How long, you simple ones, will you love inanity,
23 how long will you turn away at my reproof? Lo! I will pour out to you my spirit, I will acquaint you with my words.
24 "Because I called and you refused, I extended my hand and no one took notice;
25 Because you disdained all my counsel, and my reproof you ignored -
26 I, in my turn, will laugh at your doom; I will mock when terror overtakes you;
27 When terror comes upon you like a storm, and your doom approaches like a whirlwind; when distress and anguish befall you.
28 8 "Then they call me, but I answer not; they seek me, but find me not;
29 Because they hated knowledge, and chose not the fear of the LORD;
30 They ignored my counsel, they spurned all my reproof; And in their arrogance they preferred arrogance, and like fools they hated knowledge:
31 9 "Now they must eat the fruit of their own way, and with their own devices be glutted.
32 For the self-will of the simple kills them, the smugness of fools destroys them.
33 But he who obeys me dwells in security, in peace, without fear of harm."
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PK0.HTM
2 edits
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesI've never met two people of faith, two Christians, two Protestants, two Lutherans, even two Lutherans within the same congregation whose faiths are identical. Doesn't it follow from your notion of faith that at most one of these believers has true faith, and that the all of the rest do not have true faith?
Fascinating.
I've never met two people of faith, two Christians, two Protestants, two Lutherans, even two Lutherans within the same congregation whose faiths are identical. Doesn't it follow from your notion of faith that at most one of these believers has true faith, and that the all of the rest do not have true faith? Do you think you are t ...[text shortened]... t is, that they don't have true faith? Do you think that there will be just one guy in heaven?
Every religion has it’s saints. There are people in every religion who know the one truth. The problem is that the masses are influenced and in many cases controlled by blind faith.
The churches hierarchy has historically done things for, shall we say “less than pure” reasons. Therefore religion has become what it is to day, many different branches interpreted in many different ways. This is why religious wars happen, and this is why they are all pointless.
If the people who practice their religions actually knew their religions, and didn’t take somebody else’s word for it, many religious problems would disappear.
Do you think you are the one guy with the true faith, and that when the others claim to have faith, they are simply mistaken, that is, that they don't have true faith?
😀😵 I believe that I have already answered this.
Originally posted by The Chess Express
There are Christians I believe who have directly experienced Jesus. There are many accounts of this. Sadly, I’m not one of them yet.
My point is that people should find God for themselves. True faith is not impossible to have. Religion and the scripture are both important, they guide us and encourage us (hopefully, when religion works that is), but it is not enough to let the church do all the work for you. Look at what this has led to.
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressThere seems to be some misunderstanding here.
[b]Many people who are now saints have had visions of hell one way or the other. The three children who had visions of hell in the context of the apparitions of the Virgin Mary in Fatima is a famous example. There are many other instances.
[/b]The children of Fatima were assured that they were not going to go to hell. In that account, it h ...[text shortened]... right.
Why do you think God lied to you ?
In no way do I think God has lied to me.[/b]
I adressed my post to aspviper666, whom you quoted in your post. You answered in his place. Are you, The Chess Express, and aspviper666 the same person ?
1 edit
Originally posted by NemesioI believe that there are Muslim saints.
So, for example, if I experience Allah, and then become a vehicle for Salam (peace)
and Taslim (submission to the Almighty), and demonstrate a life of fidelity, charity,
honesty, honor, and righteousness, you would find this to be an expression of holiness?
Nemesio
1 edit
Originally posted by ivanhoeNo, slight misunderstanding. You responded to my post and did not address it to asp.
There seems to be some misunderstanding here.
I adressed my post to aspviper666, whom you quoted in your post. You answered in his place. Are you, The Chess Express, and aspviper666 the same person ?
Please respond to this account given by asp in the “Life After Death” thread.
1 edit
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesThis is really just splitting hairs. Faith is based off of proof, direct experience, knowledge gained through empirical evidence. This is the point that I’m trying to make.
Let's try again. Do you have faith that you have 2 arms?
Faith in reference to God is the proof of things unseen because you’ve proved it only to yourself. You may have seen God, but others still cannot.
Obviously, if we’re talking about my arms, everybody can see them.