Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Did you have your head bowed, your eyes closed and your fingers clasped? Was there an oil portrait of Aryan Jesus hanging on the wall looking down upon you?

The portrait was of Aslan, but for the rest you're spot on.

Originally posted by knightmeister
"God if you are really there then.....give me some sense of your presence with me ...or cause my mind to remember a point in my life where I might have felt your presence"

Remember that whilst there is some obligation on God to answer your prayer (if it is heartfelt and genuine) there is also some obligation on you to be receptive, still and patien ...[text shortened]... are unconsciously seeking to show him not to exist then that's what you will find , nothing.

I find that ('some sense of your presence with me'😉 far too vague. If you are earnestly seeking God with the expection to find him, you are quite likely to imagine such a feeling, just like people can get sick of something they eat if they believe it's poisoned, or like you might get some sense of the presence of a person you miss very much. If God exists, he must be able to give clearer signs than some vague feeling. Why would he refuse to do so?

Originally posted by knightmeister
"God if you are really there then.....give me some sense of your presence with me ...or cause my mind to remember a point in my life where I might have felt your presence"

Remember that whilst there is some obligation on God to answer your prayer (if it is heartfelt and genuine) there is also some obligation on you to be receptive, still and patien ...[text shortened]... are unconsciously seeking to show him not to exist then that's what you will find , nothing.

I uttered the prayer some time ago. I have since been trying to be patient and receptive. I have not been staring at my watch, I did not give up after two minutes, and I am not sheltering the desire to make fun of the process.

I am rather confused as to just what I am looking for, but I have observed and felt nothing out of the ordinary. Things seem very much as they normally are here in my building on campus. I keep coming back to an annoying pain in my hand, but I recall that was there before I uttered the prayer, and I recall having broken that particular hand a couple weeks ago. Other than that, I feel well and upbeat, but that is basically how I usually feel. What am I looking for as evidence for or against the original hypothesis?

Originally posted by knightmeister
"God if you are really there then.....give me some sense of your presence with me ...or cause my mind to remember a point in my life where I might have felt your presence"

Remember that whilst there is some obligation on God to answer your prayer (if it is heartfelt and genuine) there is also some obligation on you to be receptive, still and patien ...[text shortened]... are unconsciously seeking to show him not to exist then that's what you will find , nothing.

I think the reason you are having some difficulty in helping these two gents experience God is that you are leaving out a very important step. They have to really, really want to believe. Since, instead, they are approaching the problem honestly, it will never work.

Unjustified beleif is not something that just happens to you, you need to help it along by wanting it.

Originally posted by LemonJello
I uttered the prayer some time ago. I have since been trying to be patient and receptive. I have not been staring at my watch, I did not give up after two minutes, and I am not sheltering the desire to make fun of the process.

I am rather confused as to just what I am looking for, but I have observed and felt nothing out of the ordinary. Things seem ...[text shortened]... y how I usually feel. What am I looking for as evidence for or against the original hypothesis?

Ok , assuming you are genuinely trying and having a go then what you need to do is forget for a while about looking for something "out of the ordinary". God is much more subtle than people realise.Try to see God in the ordinary for the moment and forget about ideas of apparitions or some miraculous happening.


What you can now try is to allow whatever thoughts and memories or feelings come to mind. It will require some letting go , but give it a chance. If this is not possible then try saying the prayer before you go to sleep and see what you dream about.

Originally posted by TheSkipper
I think the reason you are having some difficulty in helping these two gents experience God is that you are leaving out a very important step. They have to really, really want to believe. Since, instead, they are approaching the problem honestly, it will never work.

Unjustified beleif is not something that just happens to you, you need to help it along by wanting it.

No , I disagree. They have to really really want to give it a chance and take some kind of risk(even a small one). No amount of wanting to believe can make God real , only God being real can.

Originally posted by Nordlys
I find that ('some sense of your presence with me'😉 far too vague. If you are earnestly seeking God with the expection to find him, you are quite likely to imagine such a feeling, just like people can get sick of something they eat if they believe it's poisoned, or like you might get some sense of the presence of a person you miss very much. If God exists, he must be able to give clearer signs than some vague feeling. Why would he refuse to do so?

It is of course possible that our experiences could be fooling us. Sometimes this may be true , and sometimes we may fool ourselves that an experience isn't valid by thinking that the experience is an illusion when infact it may be real. It works both ways.

I prefer to have the experience first and then analyse it later rather than prejudge and not have the experience at all. With pre-judging one has no information with which to come to a decision.

Originally posted by knightmeister
No amount of wanting to believe can make God real , only God being real can.

That's true, but a large amount of wanting to believe can make something insignificant or random seem like a sign from God (no matter whether he's real or not).

Originally posted by knightmeister
I prefer to have the experience first and then analyse it later rather than prejudge and not have the experience at all.

Been there, done that. At that time I was in the situation that I really really wanted to believe, so I coloured my experience that way. The post-analysis didn't leave me with anything seizable, nothing that couldn't easily be explained psychologically.

Originally posted by bbarr
Yikes, chill out. I was asking plain questions, one within the context of the experiment and one to you directly. Within the context of the experiment, I was asking for a sign or indication of God's existence. To you directly I was asking for an explanation of what would count as a sign or indication of God's existence. In the absence of clear condi ...[text shortened]... ion to the scientific method would understand what I wrote about evidence and confirmation.

I think what I am saying is that although I am offering an experiment , it's not exactly going to appeal to rigid scientific thinkers because it is also intimate and personal in nature. The experiment is personal and potentially very intimate and unique to the individual. Everyone experiences spirituality in different ways but I know of none who find God this way via a heavily intellectual route.

Apologies for being blunt with you but it's tricky trying to work out who is really interested and might want to know more about who God is and who is just looking to take the Michael. I may have mis judged you but look around , there's not a lot of honest good faith flying about sometimes and I am also conscious of not allowing this process to be mocked.

We all know that not everyone responding to my posts is genuinely seeking God with even the mildest expectation of anything but a good laugh. It would be naive of you or I to think otherwise. It would also be naive to think that one's motivation plays no part in this. If what you are seeking is a way to discredit what you don't believe then that's what you will no doubt find. I don't know , that's why I am putting you on the spot.

Originally posted by Nordlys
That's true, but a large amount of wanting to believe can make something insignificant or random seem like a sign from God (no matter whether he's real or not).

Why is everyone so obssessed with "signs" . I haven't said anything about "signs" as yet!!

Originally posted by Nordlys
Been there, done that. At that time I was in the situation that I really really wanted to believe, so I coloured my experience that way. The post-analysis didn't leave me with anything seizable, nothing that couldn't easily be explained psychologically.

Maybe that was the problem , you wanted to believe too much? This would cause you later to become skeptical of your experience.

BTW- What was your experience?

Originally posted by knightmeister
I think what I am saying is that although I am offering an experiment , it's not exactly going to appeal to rigid scientific thinkers because it is also intimate and personal in nature. The experiment is personal and potentially very intimate and unique to the individual. Everyone experiences spirituality in different ways but I know of none who find G ...[text shortened]... t's what you will no doubt find. I don't know , that's why I am putting you on the spot.

By 'sign' I just mean something that stands in an evidential relation to the claim that God exists. I understand that this evidence may be internal, personal and subtle. What I am telling you is that my experiences over the last couple days, even after positing the hypothetical that God exists, have been consistent. Nothing out of the ordinary has happened either external to me or within my own psyche. So, I am asking you: What sort of experience, if it were to occur, would in your opinion constitute evidence for the claim that God exists? This is what LJ and I have been asking you for all day, and you've yet to proffer an answer.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Ok , assuming you are genuinely trying and having a go then what you need to do is forget for a while about looking for something "out of the ordinary". God is much more subtle than people realise.Try to see God in the ordinary for the moment and forget about ideas of apparitions or some miraculous happening.


What you can now try is to allow wha ...[text shortened]... s not possible then try saying the prayer before you go to sleep and see what you dream about.

Hey, I'm just trying to work within the experimental boundaries you have laid out, which frankly seem pretty ill-defined. Since uttering the prayer I have not been going out of my way, per se, to look for things that are extraordinary. I'm just reporting that nothing has struck me as such thus far. This point seems more relevant to me than any other I can report at this time: I am otherwise at something of a loss concerning what outcome conditions are supposed to constitute evidence with respect to either retainment or falsification of the original hypothesis.

What you can now try is to allow whatever thoughts and memories or feelings come to mind.

There are of course thoughts, memories, feelings that I have been experiencing. I'm not sure what to report on them within the context of the experiment; again, they seem routine.

try saying the prayer before you go to sleep and see what you dream about.

OK, I will do that tonight and report tomorrow.

Originally posted by bbarr
By 'sign' I just mean something that stands in an evidential relation to the claim that God exists. I understand that this evidence may be internal, personal and subtle. What I am telling you is that my experiences over the last couple days, even after positing the hypothetical that God exists, have been consistent. Nothing out of the ordinary has happened ...[text shortened]... This is what LJ and I have been asking you for all day, and you've yet to proffer an answer.

Three things occur to me , firstly it's possible that you are already in touch with God but unwittingly don't realise it . This would mean that you need to become aware of maybe something you currently take for granted. Secondly , you may not have as yet asked God for anything (specific or otherwise) . It sounds like you have simply held an intellectual position that God might exist , which is Ok , but you might ask him directly for something.

Thridly , if your motivation is not sincere (I said if) then God will know this and may not respond. He knows (better than you do) whether you really want to seek and know him , and it might be a question you ask yourself ,.."do I really want to know God?"

EDIT- The experience you are looking for would be a feeling that you are not alone somehow and that you are being "entered" or loved by a spirit that is not your own. A spirit that is both within you but also external. You may also have a sensation of being "touched" or "known" in some way. Or it might be that for some reason a particular thought or image is being placed before you.