Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Your post is really off topic but I'll address this part of your post:
[b]"He is a vessel. He is a container. To be without Christ he may have ego. But it is empty and falls short of God's purpose for man, let alone hopelessly sinful.
His ChristLESS ego is poisoned by Satan, in rebellion against God, in darkness morally and spiritually. His salvation nce of YOUR enjoyment? If this isn't an egocentric point of view, I don't know what is.
If an individual's "Godless, God opposing, wicked ego was also crucified", then how do you explain that, by and large, Christians are no more moral than the general public?
1.) I reject your premise that Christians are no more moral than others. I don't think you have statistics on this.
2.) The passage of Christ I mentioned was Jesus speaking to His disciples - it is applicable to all people, Christians or non-Christians.
It concerns following Jesus rather than following the self. That is applicable to non-believers who make the step to follow Jesus out of their unbelief into belief in Christ. But it is just as applicable to the Christian who has believed but still needs to follow Christ.
It is a matter then of degree. It is not a binary matter. That is why I closed that post with a word about turning one's being over to Christ, chamber by chamber, room by room, aspect by aspect, gradually, progressively deepening one's following of Christ.
Therefore it is really a life long process of learning to deny the self and follow Christ.
And as I have written before. I know thousands of Christians who live and are endevouring to live the highest standard of morality on the earth. So I reject you off the cuff pseudo statistics that all Christians are no more moral than non-Christians.
One thing is certain. Far more attention is given in the media to Christians being poor testimonies than is given to those who consistently live high morality. There is more sensation in people's failures than in their successes. And generally people like yourself like to gloat so as to comfort themselves that Christ makes no difference in people's lives.
Also, are you aware that your post is filled with references to the importance of YOUR enjoyment? If this isn't an egocentric point of view, I don't know what is.
Your objective to the enjoyment of Christ is a philosophy of asceticism
. The monks in the Dark Ages were ascetics who thought to punish themselves was spiritual. This is like the St. Augustine who was guilty at killing a bug. So he spent the night in a swamp to allow himself to be bitten by bugs all night. This is aceticism - to cause the flesh and the soul to suffer.
Christ is not interested in the soul life suffering. He is interested in the soul life dying, being terminated and you enjoying God instead.
This is a mutual enjoyment. Our enjoyment of God is a reflection of His enjoyment of us.
The soul is an enjoying organ. One of the soul's function is enjoyment. The soul is created an enjoying entity by nature. It is the fall of man that he has turned this enjoyment towards destructive things. It is a recovery of the soul's normalcy that it enjoy God.
This passage shows that eternal life is a matter of enjoyng God:
"Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, If anyone thirst let him come unto Me and drink. He who believes into Me, as the Scriptures said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water. But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive ..."(John 7:39)
1.) The feast is a time of enoyment. Because Jesus knew that people at the feast were really not in the deepest human enjoyment He cried out for these dissatisfied people to come to Him to be satisfied. He waited until the "great day"
2.) The enjoyment He gives will be deeper - out of man's innermost being. Many people can vouch that when they should be happy and laughing (like at a party) deep within they are still empty and thirsty for life.
3.) This divine enjoyment is God Himself for it is the Spirit, the Holy Spirit Who is the Third of the Triune God reaching man finally in a mos subjective way.
4.) The Spirit will not only quench man's thirst for life but also flow spontaneously from within his innermost being.
It is not spiritual to ascetically seek to suffer for its own sake. Spirituality is to enjoy something else besides the fallen world. It is to put down one kind of enjoyment of sin and pick up the enjoyment of the Triune God. It is to tap into a deeper enjoyment. And that enjoyment is so solid that it can support and uphold a person even in very uncomfortble circumstances.
The Christians martyrs were tortured. They were able to endure because they taped into a deeper realm in their being where the Spirit of Jesus Christ was enjoyed with a joy that the world cannot surpress.
So the enjoyment of God Himself is not self centered. And we need not adopt a philosophy of Middle Age asceticism.