1. Joined
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    25 Feb '09 23:402 edits
    The ego seeks a sense of well-being if not to 'feel good' which leaves the individual with a distorted view of themselves and the world, i.e. reality.

    Are there any systems of belief that don't ultimately fulfill the ego?

    Granted, many don't seem to be so ego fulfilling as "God accepts me the way I am", but still all I can think of seem to advocate a sense of well-being if not bliss or joy as at least part of the ultimate goal.
  2. Illinois
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    26 Feb '09 10:093 edits
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    The ego seeks a sense of well-being if not to 'feel good' which leaves the individual with a distorted view of themselves and the world, i.e. reality.

    Are there any systems of belief that don't ultimately fulfill the ego?

    Granted, many don't seem to be so ego fulfilling as "God accepts me the way I am", but still all I can think of seem to advocate a sense of well-being if not bliss or joy as at least part of the ultimate goal.
    The ego seeks a sense of well-being if not to 'feel good' which leaves the individual with a distorted view of themselves and the world, i.e. reality.

    (1) It is not necessarily true that the ego seeks a sense of well-being (i.e., pleasure). Viktor Frankl made the point that pleasure-seeking is an intrinsically self-defeating enterprise. What is more plausible, he reasoned, is that man seeks meaning rather than pleasure.

    (2) A man's search for meaning doesn't necessarily leave one with a distorted view of reality (I'm not sure if I can say the same for the seeking of pleasure).

    Are there any systems of belief that don't ultimately fulfill the ego?

    It depends on what the definition of 'ego' is. Are we talking merely about the wants of the reptilian brain, or the wider complexities of a fully developed human personality? Some people have healthy egos which can be satiated reasonably and easily. Others are more disturbed and need special attention or professional help.

    In my experience, what most people need, at bottom, is love. A system of belief may satisfy the intellectual facet of a person's inner life, but I don't think it is possible to find true fulfillment apart from real relationships; whether with God Himself, or other people. It just can't be done.

    Granted, many don't seem to be so ego fulfilling as "God accepts me the way I am", but still all I can think of seem to advocate a sense of well-being if not bliss or joy as at least part of the ultimate goal.

    Like it or not, we are forward looking creatures. Without hope life takes on the character of the absurd and a person flirts with despair. I think meaning is essential. And what is the meaning of living on earth if a man can't expect to get what he needs? Given our peculiarities and limitations as creatures, it seems that a system of belief must include the reasonable satisfaction of a person's ego, in my opinion - most likely through love (love directly from God, or from one's fellows/family).

    Not to mention the fact that charitable giving to others and the expression of love to others can also be personally fulfilling.
  3. Standard memberKellyJay
    Walk your Faith
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    26 Feb '09 10:18
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    The ego seeks a sense of well-being if not to 'feel good' which leaves the individual with a distorted view of themselves and the world, i.e. reality.

    Are there any systems of belief that don't ultimately fulfill the ego?

    Granted, many don't seem to be so ego fulfilling as "God accepts me the way I am", but still all I can think of seem to advocate a sense of well-being if not bliss or joy as at least part of the ultimate goal.
    Distorted views period are the issue, if a clear grasp of reality were
    made the ego would simply just be in a state of normal being. Where
    we think of ourselves as better or worse than we are, it causes us to
    work against reality in our daily activities. If one rightly thought of
    themselves correctly, ego wouldn't be an issue.
    Kelly
  4. Joined
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    26 Feb '09 12:346 edits
    Paul's writing show that his salvation lies in Christ living within his ego (Greek) , his sense of "I"

    "I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me ..." (Gal. 2:20a)

    He is a vessel. He is a container. To be without Christ he may have ego. But it is empty and falls short of God's purpose for man, let alone hopelessly sinful.

    His ChristLESS ego is poisoned by Satan, in rebellion against God, in darkness morally and spiritually. His salvation is in his accepting that when Christ died on the cross his Godless, God opposing, wicked ego was also crucified. And in receiving Christ into his being - it is no longer empty ego but Christ who has taken up residence within him.

    "I am crucified with Christ;and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

    I do not nullify the grace of God."


    The grace of God here is that one Person, the resurrected Son of God, could come to live in another person, Paul. That is Paul and every other believer in Christ.

    The grace is to enjoy this union with Christ. The grace is to experience that Christ righteous life which is totally pleasing to the Father, may mingle and blend with the life of the one who has become His vessel, within whom Christ has come to live.

    These words of Paul so accurately reflect the teaching in the four Gospels.

    "Then Jesus said to His disciples, If anyone wants to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me.

    For whoever wants to save his soul-life shall lose it; but whoever loses his soul-life for My sake shall find it.

    For what shall a man be profited if he gains the whole world, but forfeits his soul-life? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul-life.

    For the Son of Man is to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will repay each man according to his doings." (Matt. 16:24-27)


    The closed self is without Jesus. The man closes himself to keep Jesus OUT. In doing so he thinks that he will save his soul-life. That is he thinks this will work out well for his ego. But in the end he will lose his the enjoyment. Even if he gains the whole world he will lose his enjoyment.

    The person who wants to follow Christ is wiser. He realizes that it is better to lose now and gain in the end. This is better than to gain now only to lose in the end. So he opens up his being to receive Christ. This is a crucifixion to the sinful Godless, God opposing, darkened and polluted fallen self. In following Christ he will lose that negative thing which he inherited from the fall of Adam.

    But in losing that fallen soul-life he will win be obtaining a Christ filled soul. Christ living in him will be a new holy, righteous, clean, joyful Father approved enjoyment in this life and a great reward when Jesus physcially returns.

    He will find his soul. He will find his true identity. That is the God filled man is his true identity. The Satan corrupted man is not his true identity which he should preserve.

    He would be wiser to give up the Satan poisoned ego to obtain the Christ following and Christ filled soul. It is better to pick up the cross and follow Jesus today than to shun the cross only to lose the soul in the end.

    Just to say "Lord Jesus, I love you. Lord Jesus, I receive you into my heart" is a picking up of the cross, denying the fallen ego and opening up one's being to receive Christ as grace and life. This is to save your soul in the wiser sense. The way to remain closed and not following Christ, though you gain the whole world, will cost you everything your soul enjoys in the end. It is a bad deal.

    "For what shall a man be profited if he gains the whole world, but forfeits his soul-life? For what shall a man give in exchange for his soul-life?"


    Therefore the highest self preservation is to give one's being over to Jesus Christ. Chamber by chamber, and room by room, aspect by aspect, systematically reliquish self centeredness and open up ones entire being to receive the living Jesus Christ.
  5. Donationbuckky
    Filthy sinner
    Outskirts of bliss
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    26 Feb '09 17:04
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Distorted views period are the issue, if a clear grasp of reality were
    made the ego would simply just be in a state of normal being. Where
    we think of ourselves as better or worse than we are, it causes us to
    work against reality in our daily activities. If one rightly thought of
    themselves correctly, ego wouldn't be an issue.
    Kelly
    The sense of duality is the problem as I sse it. As long as the subject feels seperation from the the oject a pinch takes place. Reality is Unity. It's next to impossible to know or feel that as a personal reality. The ego prevents you from seeing reality because it fears being snuffed out. The ego wants to be seperate because that's the job of illusion making.
  6. weedhopper
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    26 Feb '09 20:47
    I've found that some people truly have no ego; I think that's why I like being around them.
  7. Joined
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    26 Feb '09 22:59
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    [b]The ego seeks a sense of well-being if not to 'feel good' which leaves the individual with a distorted view of themselves and the world, i.e. reality.

    (1) It is not necessarily true that the ego seeks a sense of well-being (i.e., pleasure). Viktor Frankl made the point that pleasure-seeking is an intrinsically self-defeating enterprise. What ...[text shortened]... others and the expression of love to others can also be personally fulfilling.[/b]
    I'd agree that "pleasure-seeking" is a dead end, but I'm not sure why you see it as synonymous with "well-being" rather than the dictionary definition: "the state of being happy, healthy, or prosperous". Through rationalization, confirmation bias, etc., the ego gives the individual a distorted view of reality in order to achieve such a state. It seems that for the vast majority of cases an individual who has found "meaning" has merely achieved such a state. If you're like most Christians, you probably believe that the "meaning" found by those who do not "believe in Jesus" as having a distorted view of reality. Of course it cuts both ways. They likely are as convinced that Christians have a distorted view of reality. Finding "meaning" should not, therefore, be mistaken for finding reality.

    If you take a deep look at "love", you'll find similar distortions. For the vast majority "love" is basically equivalent with a sense of well-being if not "feeling good". Hence the use of the word "love" when many individuals speak of how they feel about, say, chocolate. Also for the vast majority who say that they "love" God, what they mean is that they have a sense of well-being if not that they "feel good" to do so. One only need look at the incongruity of their actions and the "love" that they profess. It's analogous to a man who "loves" his wife, yet betrays her trust by having sex with others.

    "Charitable giving" is rarely completely altruistic. For the vast majority it involves finding it "personally fulfilling" which is once again having a sense of well-being if not that they "feel good" to do so.
  8. Joined
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    26 Feb '09 23:02
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Distorted views period are the issue, if a clear grasp of reality were
    made the ego would simply just be in a state of normal being. Where
    we think of ourselves as better or worse than we are, it causes us to
    work against reality in our daily activities. If one rightly thought of
    themselves correctly, ego wouldn't be an issue.
    Kelly
    It doesn't seem that you understand the cause and effect here. It is the rationalization, confirmation bias, etc., that emanates from the ego that gives an individual a distorted view of reality.
  9. Joined
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    26 Feb '09 23:091 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Paul's writing show that his salvation lies in Christ living within his [b]ego (Greek) , his sense of "I"

    "I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me ..." (Gal. 2:20a)

    He is a vessel. He is a container. To be without Christ he may have ego. But it is empty and falls short of G f centeredness and open up ones entire being to receive the living Jesus Christ.[/b]
    Your post is really off topic but I'll address this part of your post:
    "He is a vessel. He is a container. To be without Christ he may have ego. But it is empty and falls short of God's purpose for man, let alone hopelessly sinful.

    His ChristLESS ego is poisoned by Satan, in rebellion against God, in darkness morally and spiritually. His salvation is in his accepting that when Christ died on the cross his Godless, God opposing, wicked ego was also crucified. And in receiving Christ into his being - it is no longer empty ego but Christ who has taken up residence within him."


    If an individual's "Godless, God opposing, wicked ego was also crucified", then how do you explain that, by and large, Christians are no more moral than the general public?

    Also, are you aware that your post is filled with references to the importance of YOUR enjoyment? If this isn't an egocentric point of view, I don't know what is.
  10. Joined
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    27 Feb '09 02:163 edits
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Your post is really off topic but I'll address this part of your post:
    [b]"He is a vessel. He is a container. To be without Christ he may have ego. But it is empty and falls short of God's purpose for man, let alone hopelessly sinful.

    His ChristLESS ego is poisoned by Satan, in rebellion against God, in darkness morally and spiritually. His salvation nce of YOUR enjoyment? If this isn't an egocentric point of view, I don't know what is.
    [/b] ================================
    If an individual's "Godless, God opposing, wicked ego was also crucified", then how do you explain that, by and large, Christians are no more moral than the general public?
    ==================================


    1.) I reject your premise that Christians are no more moral than others. I don't think you have statistics on this.

    2.) The passage of Christ I mentioned was Jesus speaking to His disciples - it is applicable to all people, Christians or non-Christians.

    It concerns following Jesus rather than following the self. That is applicable to non-believers who make the step to follow Jesus out of their unbelief into belief in Christ. But it is just as applicable to the Christian who has believed but still needs to follow Christ.

    It is a matter then of degree. It is not a binary matter. That is why I closed that post with a word about turning one's being over to Christ, chamber by chamber, room by room, aspect by aspect, gradually, progressively deepening one's following of Christ.

    Therefore it is really a life long process of learning to deny the self and follow Christ.

    And as I have written before. I know thousands of Christians who live and are endevouring to live the highest standard of morality on the earth. So I reject you off the cuff pseudo statistics that all Christians are no more moral than non-Christians.

    One thing is certain. Far more attention is given in the media to Christians being poor testimonies than is given to those who consistently live high morality. There is more sensation in people's failures than in their successes. And generally people like yourself like to gloat so as to comfort themselves that Christ makes no difference in people's lives.

    ==================================
    Also, are you aware that your post is filled with references to the importance of YOUR enjoyment? If this isn't an egocentric point of view, I don't know what is.
    ==============================


    Your objective to the enjoyment of Christ is a philosophy of asceticism. The monks in the Dark Ages were ascetics who thought to punish themselves was spiritual. This is like the St. Augustine who was guilty at killing a bug. So he spent the night in a swamp to allow himself to be bitten by bugs all night. This is aceticism - to cause the flesh and the soul to suffer.

    Christ is not interested in the soul life suffering. He is interested in the soul life dying, being terminated and you enjoying God instead.

    This is a mutual enjoyment. Our enjoyment of God is a reflection of His enjoyment of us.

    The soul is an enjoying organ. One of the soul's function is enjoyment. The soul is created an enjoying entity by nature. It is the fall of man that he has turned this enjoyment towards destructive things. It is a recovery of the soul's normalcy that it enjoy God.

    This passage shows that eternal life is a matter of enjoyng God:

    "Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, If anyone thirst let him come unto Me and drink. He who believes into Me, as the Scriptures said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water. But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive ..."(John 7:39)

    1.) The feast is a time of enoyment. Because Jesus knew that people at the feast were really not in the deepest human enjoyment He cried out for these dissatisfied people to come to Him to be satisfied. He waited until the "great day".

    2.) The enjoyment He gives will be deeper - out of man's innermost being. Many people can vouch that when they should be happy and laughing (like at a party) deep within they are still empty and thirsty for life.

    3.) This divine enjoyment is God Himself for it is the Spirit, the Holy Spirit Who is the Third of the Triune God reaching man finally in a mos subjective way.

    4.) The Spirit will not only quench man's thirst for life but also flow spontaneously from within his innermost being.

    It is not spiritual to ascetically seek to suffer for its own sake. Spirituality is to enjoy something else besides the fallen world. It is to put down one kind of enjoyment of sin and pick up the enjoyment of the Triune God. It is to tap into a deeper enjoyment. And that enjoyment is so solid that it can support and uphold a person even in very uncomfortble circumstances.

    The Christians martyrs were tortured. They were able to endure because they taped into a deeper realm in their being where the Spirit of Jesus Christ was enjoyed with a joy that the world cannot surpress.

    So the enjoyment of God Himself is not self centered. And we need not adopt a philosophy of Middle Age asceticism.
  11. Hmmm . . .
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    27 Feb '09 05:391 edit
    The term “ego” is used differently in different traditions. I call it the “somebody-self construct”. It is who we come to think we are, a bundle of self-conceptions that we have learned, had conditioned, reinforced, etc. Outwardly, it may be the “social” self that we project; inwardly, it is our own projection to ourselves. The psychological complexities are doubtless myriad.

    We have all acquired such a somebody-self-construct. It is a complex of roles we play—to ourselves as well as others. And therein lies the problem: we take the role as real. But the role is a product of learning, thinking, conceptualizing. It is just that it is so conditioned and habitual that people seldom seem to realize that it is a construct—and hence are controlled by it. This can be seen perhaps most easily when people are “acting out”: throwing tantrums, becoming hysterical, anxious, etc.

    We tend to expend a lot of energy to maintain, defend, and aggrandize that “ego” that we think we are. That energy could serve the actual well-being (as opposed to ill-being) of the person—a well-being (as opposed to ill-being) that we can extend to and share with others.

    The somebody-self-construct needs to be seen through—just as we can learn to see through all concept-making to the pre-conceptual (“pre-thinking-about” ) reality underlying all our concept-making.

    In simple clear awareness, there is no such “ego” to be found. There is just reality, what is going on right here and now, in which and of which we inseparably are. Just allowing the mind to relax from its habitual thinking-thinking-thinking—including “I-thoughts”—into that clear being-aware is just what meditation is. That’s all it really is: all “techniques” really aim just at that.

    When one has spent some time in that clear being- aware, one simply realizes the nature of the “ego-construct”. It may still re-assert itself—such habits are forceful—but its force will begin to dissipate, since it relies on the illusion. As long as one thinks the “ego-construct” is really “who they are”, there is really not much to be done.
  12. Standard memberblack beetle
    Black Beastie
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    27 Feb '09 06:19
    Originally posted by vistesd
    The term “ego” is used differently in different traditions. I call it the “somebody-self construct”. It is who we come to think we are, a bundle of self-conceptions that we have learned, had conditioned, reinforced, etc. Outwardly, it may be the “social” self that we project; inwardly, it is our own projection to ourselves. The psychological complexit ...[text shortened]... as one thinks the “ego-construct” is really “who they are”, there is really not much to be done.
    "Ego" is the glance that keeps you Separated😵
  13. Hmmm . . .
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    27 Feb '09 06:24
    Originally posted by black beetle
    "Ego" is the glance that keeps you Separated😵
    Yep.
  14. Standard memberblack beetle
    Black Beastie
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    27 Feb '09 06:30
    I love the lyrics of Psalm 137, for they are crystal clear and powerful; is it my ego or myself the one who loves this Psalm?
    😵
  15. Hmmm . . .
    Joined
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    27 Feb '09 06:46
    Originally posted by black beetle
    I love the lyrics of Psalm 137, for they are crystal clear and powerful; is it my ego or myself the one who loves this Psalm?
    😵
    If you ask, then you have to answer! 😉
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